Question:
For anyone truly interested in current first person accounts of orphanage life, two of the best books I’ve seen are: The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage by Richard McKenzie and Where Courage Is Like a Wild Horse: The World of an Indian Orphanage by Sharon Skolnick. And for a fictionalized account of the Hebrew Home for Boys in NYC, see DAVE AT NIGHT by someone whose name I can’t remember … but she won a Newbery Award for another children’s book. I think the main problem with institutionalized care is that "good" is so rarely an appropriate modifier. Financial factors tend to separate the two. Best wishes. Sue T. A new dream: the best interests of and full equality for adoptees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For anyone truly interested in current first person accounts of orphanage life, two of the best books I’ve seen are: The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage by Richard McKenzie and Where Courage Is Like a Wild Horse: The World of an Indian Orphanage by Sharon Skolnick. And for a fictionalized account of the Hebrew Home for Boys in NYC, see DAVE AT NIGHT by someone whose name I can’t remember … but she won a Newbery Award for another children’s book. I think the main problem with institutionalized care is that "good" is so rarely an appropriate modifier. Financial factors tend to separate the two. Best wishes. Sue T. A new dream: the best interests of and full equality for adoptees.
Here are excerpts from two recent articles on an institutional effort in Minnesota, with urls for those who would like the complete articles: J. Published: Sunday, May 7, 2000 MODELED ON BOYS TOWN Children’s futures drive Copeland’s dream If enough people think of a thing and work hard enough at it, I guess it’s pretty nearly bound to happen, wind and weather permitting. “On the Shores of Silver Lake” by Laura Ingalls Wilder, (1939) Hang out with Mary Jo Copeland for any amount of time, and you’ll leave thinking she’s the wind, weather and a crowd of determined people. Copeland, who founded Sharing & Caring Hands in Minneapolis, has announced plans for a children’s home in Brooklyn Center. The children, ages about 4 to 11, will be residents of the apartment-like building comprising two wings and including a gym, library and large communal kitchen. The kids will live eight to an apartment with an adult. The home will be administered by a religious order of nuns. Copeland compares the residence to Omaha’s Boys Town, Father Flanagan’s home for orphans and wayward youth. Most will have parents who are living. But the spirit of Boys Town will be carried forward, she hopes, where throwaway children come into a caring, enriching and stable environment for the first time in their young lives. Major funding for the $24 million project will come from the Target Corporation and other business sponsors. Hoops yet to be cleared include zoning approvals for the home from the Brooklyn Center City Council. For the rest of the story: http://www.pioneerplanet.com/search?NS-search-page=document&NS-rel-do… e=/opinion/docs/030522.htm&NS-query=%22caring+hands%22&NS-search-type=NS-b oolean-query&NS-collection=PioneerPlanet&NS-docs-matched=6&NS-doc-number=2 and Published: Thursday, May 11, 2000 DeborahLocke Editorial Writer A change of heart Mary Jo Copeland won’t take no for an answer. Her latest plan to build a children’s home in Brooklyn Center is meeting civic opposition, but she says she can win over the opponents and she won’t be put off. Today’s installment in this yearlong series on the homeless represents a change of pace. So far, we have profiled individuals with an emphasis on the events that make a person homeless. This week, inspired by news events, I decided to focus on an entire class of people who are homeless: children. Since January, I’ve seen kids in meal lines with parents or in waiting facilities during the day. At night, I’ve seen children with their parents as they prepared them for sleep in a homeless shelter when family residences were filled to capacity. Mary Jo Copeland, founder and director of Sharing & Caring Hands in Minneapolis, sees hundreds of these children each month. Many are from Ramsey County. After almost 15 years of working with the poor through her charity organization, she started efforts to build a children’s home in Brooklyn Center to bring kids stability, discipline and love. Challenges lie ahead. Brooklyn Center has not exactly opened its arms to her. The city of 28,000 north of Minneapolis has a comprehensive zoning plan that specifies what can be built where. Copeland says she has a comprehensive reality: 200 homeless, parentless kids. She purchased six acres of land adjacent to the Earle Brown Heritage Center, and hopes to complete the project there and begin admitting children the summer of 2002. Blueprints depict an apartment-like complex for around 190 children; later the buildings could be expanded to hold 256 children, if the need arose. The idea is to keep siblings in large families together, something the foster system rarely accomplishes. The kids would live eight to an apartment, two to a bedroom, with a supervising adult who may be a member of a religious order. Copeland and city officials are trying to schedule a meeting soon to review the site plans. A public hearing probably will follow. The reaction from Brooklyn Center residents has been very negative, said City Manager Michael McCauley. From the city’s perspective, doubts exist about the density restrictions for the area that is zoned for commercial use. Additionally, how will the school district accommodate more kids in light of its current space crunch? For the rest of the story: http://www.pioneerplanet.com/search?NS-search-page=document&NS-rel-do… e=/opinion/ocl_docs/001818.htm&NS-query=%22caring+hands%22&NS-search-type= NS-boolean-query&NS-collection=PioneerPlanet&NS-docs-matched=6&NS-doc-numbe r=1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin
Response:
Linda, Are you really backing this petition? Do you really believe we should abolish adoption? Just wondering. Nancy, –Not only no, but HELL NO! Lori and I had a couple of emails on Open Records, and Baby Dumping. I told her I *fully* supported her in that –
Why not? Are there any studies that show adoptive/foster families are better for children than good institutionalization?
Response:
I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin
Response:
It’s neat to find someone here who’s actually done the research. Would the outcomes differ by the age of the child? There are a lot of people who voluntarily institutionalise their children by sending them to boarding schools for 9 months of the year. Of course it’s not the same thing at all, and yet maybe that’s a paradign for how a good institution might work. Or is it a matter of the child believing that there is someone, some adult, to whom its welfare is extremely important? Rupa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin
Response:
Linda, Are you really backing this petition? Do you really believe we should abolish adoption? Just wondering.
Nancy, –Not only no, but HELL NO! Lori and I had a couple of emails on Open Records, and Baby Dumping. I told her I *fully* supported her in that – and everything else she is doing for that matter. Somehow, abolish adoption came in to the equation. I can’t in my wildest imagination understand why anyone would want to do that. But, I have been busy with personal issues, and I have had like 30 emails from Lori and Jeep in the last couple of days, and I have over 2,500 unanswered emails sitting in here. I should have at least glanced at them. I’m only answering this to you right now because of the subject line. And I, unfortunately, will be answering a bunch of them in the next few days. Which will take me away from my mission on getting Medicaid on the side of getting rid of baby dumping. But I want you all to know where I stand. –I have asked her to explain to my why we would want to abolish it, and I am not clear on the answer. Something about conservative person or guardianship. I don’t know. But I guess by the end of the day I will know. <sigh I had such a headache on this issue yesterday I had to get off line. I shudder to think what is going out in alt.adoption and the rest of them. –But unequivacably NO, I do not support abolishing adoption. I am all FOR Open Adoption. I probably should be answering Lori directly first, but I want to stop this before it spreads to far too fast. It doesn’t make sense to me – at present. But when I hear what she has to say, and I will have to be "baby stepped" through it – if it makes sense to me, then I will support it. But right now, no. –This was an unfortunate cross communication between Lori and I – plain and simple. I don’t want everyone thinking Lori just threw my name out there on purpose, because I know she would never do that. Lori is afraid that now, if I back off the sponsorship I will appear wishy washy. Well, consider me wishy washy then. I’ve been called worse! –I will look for the original email she sent me, and read it again. And I apologize right here and now if it clearly said that – but I don’t think it did. And I never polled *anyone* on this issue. Not one person. I make my own opinions on issues, and if I don’t think it is a good idea, I don’t need even 2 people to tell me it is a good idea – or a bad idea for that matter. Lori, however, did write me back and said she didn’t mean to include me in that statement. She said she knows I didn’t poll anyone. –This is an unfortunate mistake. And I’ll take the heat on it, because I flat did not see that in her email. We were talking about Open Records and Baby Dumping. She had an attachment that I understood had a virus, so I didn’t open it. Guess that was it. –Those of you who know me, know very well how I feel on those issues. I have never had a conversation with anyone on abolishing adoption – ‘cept in the last day or two with Lori. –I will answer you all personally shortly, I will not answer directly anyone on alt.adoption unless you personally write to me. I have more than enough mail as it is to respond to. I don’t mean to be rude, but to me, it is counterproductive to read emails that will just piss me off – alt.adoption tends to do that to me. If you want me to read it, write to me personally. –Again, I apologize MOST SINCERELY for this miscommunication, and I will resolve the situation with Lori personally, if she will let me. — Linda S. Hammer The Seeker, Reuniting America! http://www.the-seeker.com Find all your missing friends, relatives, classmates, military pals, heirs & beneficiaries, birth parents, adoptees, or missing child. If you can’t find your missing friend or relative through The Seeker, they have left the planet!
Response:
PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents.
Except that the child is not necessarily placed with one family in a permanent arrangement. A colleague "fostered" a 10 year old boy who had been with his original foster family since he was a year old. (The foster family decided to give him up to avoid the difficult teen years, and besides he was getting in the way of an overseas trip they were hanging out for. They obviously did not commit to him for the long haul of parenting.) He was unattached and showing signs of major emotional disorders which is hardly a surprise. Things may have been different if he had the emotional security of a committed adoptive family from his earliest days in the "care" system. Another kid I met through the school system was on her fourth foster placement since her mother had died when she was a toddler. (She was 10 years old) M
Response:
Oops, I missed these two replies. Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed. And yet adoptions continue to occur.
Yes they do but they longer encourage adoptions as a first option being in the long term interest of the child. In Oz it’s now the last option when all other alternatives are unavailable. The Oz Govt doesn’t have a say in the manner in which other countries adoption counselling and procedures occur. We only have a right to exploit them. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965. So it isn’t only private infant adoptions that were outlawed.
All privately arranged adoptions that were often ‘done behind the dunny door’ were outlawed, regardless of the child’s age.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents. Except that the child is not necessarily placed with one family in a permanent arrangement. A colleague "fostered" a 10 year old boy who had been with his original foster family since he was a year old. (The foster family decided to give him up to avoid the difficult teen years, and besides he was getting in the way of an overseas trip they were hanging out for. They obviously did not commit to him for the long haul of parenting.) He was unattached and showing signs of major emotional disorders which is hardly a surprise. Things may have been different if he had the emotional security of a committed adoptive family from his earliest days in the "care" system. Another kid I met through the school system was on her fourth foster placement since her mother had died when she was a toddler. (She was 10 years old) M
You are confusing permanent placement with foster care. Two entirely different setups. Unlike foster care, permanent placement is a legal arrangement. Adoption holds no assurances either. While the adoption remains permanent on paper it doesn’t assure the child of a permanent relationship with their adopters. No piece of paper can guarantee security. Only the quality of the relationship can do that.
Response:
Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. 73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247… Yes–year over year, adoptions seem to be increasing.
The combined number of O/S and local adoptions only adds up to around 500 Oz wide in total at this point. Down from even a decade ago. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Do you mean permanent care orders? I believe that it is one of the institutions.
PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents. It’s much like adoption without the state owning the child’s identity, removing his legal status and relationship to his own family members, denying him his medical history etc as is the case in adoption. He remains a member of both families with his guardians bearing the responsibiliy of all the decision making during his childhood. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz. Private adoptions are.
Privately ‘arranged’ adoption always have been. Private adoption ‘agencies’ licenced by the state still exist. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Yes we do. We know what’s officially recorded.
True. But then if they’re not officially recorded, they’re not adoptions.
Response:
Kindly explain to me how my daughter would be better off growing up in a third world orphanage as opposed to having two loving parents. In other words, you are painting with too broad a brush. I am not dismissing what you’ve written here at all. I merely want to point out that in this imperfect world adoption can be beneficial to children Linda PS Ask kids in foster care if they would like to remain in foster care or be adopted.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed.
And yet adoptions continue to occur. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965.
So it isn’t only private infant adoptions that were outlawed. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. 73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247…
Yes–year over year, adoptions seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Do you mean permanent care orders?
I believe that it is one of the institutions. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz.
Private adoptions are. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Yes we do.
We know what’s officially recorded.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder.
Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there.
Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing.
73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247… And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption.
Do you mean permanent care orders? Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created.
Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?
Yes we do.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Private adoptions in Australia have not recently been prohibited. They have been illegal for many decades and to the best of my knowledge were not associated with any reduction in domestic adoptions. There has never been any prohibition on adoptions here and no reason to believe there has been a black market created in adoptions. Rather the numbers of children available for adoption fell dramatically from the early 1970s after the Whitlam government introduced benefits for single mothers raising their children, social attitudes changed, abortion and birth control became more readily available, step-parent adoptions were discouraged, and states such as Victoria introduced alternative provisions such as permanent care orders which took the place of adoption orders for some children. For details on the number of adoptions occurring in Australia currently and over the last few decades see the annual publication produced by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare called "Adoptions Australia" http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/aa03-04/aa03-04.pdf Last year saw an overall increase of 6% in the numbers of children adopted in Australia. Intercountry adoptions increased by 33% and domestic adoptions fell. I believe intercountry adoptions are continuing to increase substantially. Two weeks ago I spoke at one of our bi-annual information days for prospective intercountry adoptive parents. We had double the number of prospective applicants than we’d previously had, and as a response to that increased interest our govt Adoption Unit has had to schedule two intake seminars for May and July rather than the usual one seminar.
Thank you for the clarifications. Certainly, the things you mention are one way of looking at the fall in intracountry adoptions and are the facts that tend to be emphasized by the Australian government. The government’s strong policy to discourage such adoptions is another way of looking at it. Clearly, from the facts you recite, there remains a strong interest in adoption. I would be surprised if adoption is the one area in which a government prohibition was not complemented by some kind of black market.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.
Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.
No it won’t die. I just came back from let’s say…. hanging with the industry…and what I saw was staggering in it’s paranoia and fear. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?
Private adoptions in Australia have not recently been prohibited. They have been illegal for many decades and to the best of my knowledge were not associated with any reduction in domestic adoptions. There has never been any prohibition on adoptions here and no reason to believe there has been a black market created in adoptions. Rather the numbers of children available for adoption fell dramatically from the early 1970s after the Whitlam government introduced benefits for single mothers raising their children, social attitudes changed, abortion and birth control became more readily available, step-parent adoptions were discouraged, and states such as Victoria introduced alternative provisions such as permanent care orders which took the place of adoption orders for some children. For details on the number of adoptions occurring in Australia currently and over the last few decades see the annual publication produced by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare called "Adoptions Australia" http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/aa03-04/aa03-04.pdf Last year saw an overall increase of 6% in the numbers of children adopted in Australia. Intercountry adoptions increased by 33% and domestic adoptions fell. I believe intercountry adoptions are continuing to increase substantially. Two weeks ago I spoke at one of our bi-annual information days for prospective intercountry adoptive parents. We had double the number of prospective applicants than we’d previously had, and as a response to that increased interest our govt Adoption Unit has had to schedule two intake seminars for May and July rather than the usual one seminar. Julia
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is.
You mean he wishes you were his family but can’t see you as such? Do you both have the same bio-dad? He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean?
He sounds pretty odd…if he’s well-off enough to own two houses, one wouldn’t think he’d be stealing. Could be pathological, I guess. so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess!
That sounds deranged. Did his bio-dad have mental health problems? As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not
involved, You do realize that isn’t precisely the normal procedure? I’m not sure what the purpose would be. Did it happen, to your mother’s knowledge, all across Australia, or only at certain hospitals or in certain states? for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative.
That’s not what foster kids say, though. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.
No, not at all. We do have people affected by adoption — adoptees, birthparents, adoptive parents — discussing various related topics, and a good many unrelated ones. Attitudes to adoption range from unreservedly for to equally unreservedly against. I’m not sure if there’s a critical mass of "kept kids" who want to discuss this their adopted siblings. You could try adoption.com — it’s a moderated group, and gets quite a range of traffic. You’re welcome to stick around here, for that matter — we used to be the scariest ng on Usenet, but we’re mellower now, and you may not even need this virtual Flame-retardant armor… Rupa
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. No it won’t die. I just came back from let’s say…. hanging with the industry…and what I saw was staggering in it’s paranoia and fear.
Could you expand on that a little? I know they have reason to be apprehensive, given the conflicts and other problems that are built into what they do.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.
I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Robin
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is. He is drinking himself into the dirt, and he gets into trouble for awful things- he beats people up a lot, especially asians, and steals off people, drunk driving, etc. Knowing my mother and her story, living with the people that adopted him and comparing that life with what he sees when he comes to Perth is such a huge, strange paradox for him – understandably, of course. He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean? He is so used to suppressing his wishes, or true ideals, it is easy for him to think one thing and do the other – sorry, I’m not explaining anything right today; All I’m saying is that on the surface and deep down he has a confusion that he can see we don’t have, so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess! As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not involved, I’ve just been able to witness the flip side of the coin, so to speak. I am 100% against adoption, however, there are always special circumstances, and for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.
Are you by any chance the scriptwriter for ‘Home and Away’? You’re just giving an idea a test run here, is that it? Robin
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley
Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.
Response:
My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch.
I had heard about hospital kidnappings, but not that branding was part of the procedure? certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with.
Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa
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Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa
No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is. He is drinking himself into the dirt, and he gets into trouble for awful things- he beats people up a lot, especially asians, and steals off people, drunk driving, etc. Knowing my mother and her story, living with the people that adopted him and comparing that life with what he sees when he comes to Perth is such a huge, strange paradox for him – understandably, of course. He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean? He is so used to suppressing his wishes, or true ideals, it is easy for him to think one thing and do the other – sorry, I’m not explaining anything right today; All I’m saying is that on the surface and deep down he has a confusion that he can see we don’t have, so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess! As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not involved, I’ve just been able to witness the flip side of the coin, so to speak. I am 100% against adoption, however, there are always special circumstances, and for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.
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If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there. You appear to be posting from Western Australia. I thought domestic infant adoption had almost totaly ceased in Australia some years ago. Robin
Doh! Someone from Origins must have internet prvileges! The good news… serial killings and suicides are down 87% in Australia since the death of infant adoption. Dad
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there
Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.
gee.. i;m sorry that you and your mother had such horrid experiences.. i certainly don’t condone what she went through, but there are also plenty of people out there for whom adoption has been a blessing.. on all sides… no one promises that every adoption will be wonderful.. no one promises that every birth family will be wonderful….
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No. it still happens, just not very often M
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.
Ooooooooooooooookay. — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.
You appear to be posting from Western Australia. I thought domestic infant adoption had almost totaly ceased in Australia some years ago. Robin
Response:
I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.
Response:
— Elise (supervised by Gossamer & Jeeves) 
) A family with 2 young boys of 8 & 10, who were very gentle and reserved when meeting the kittens. Mom and dad didn’t commit to the kittens as soon as they saw them – they had wanted one bitty, and I told them that Flan and Lola were a pair, so they went away to discuss the implications of 2 owners before saying yes. Anyway, they seem very nice, very concerned about the kittens and what having them entails, and I am happy with the home. 
but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere…