Question:

For anyone truly interested in current first person accounts of orphanage life, two of the best books I’ve seen are: The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage by Richard McKenzie and Where Courage Is Like a Wild Horse: The World of an Indian Orphanage by Sharon Skolnick. And for a fictionalized account of the Hebrew Home for Boys in NYC, see DAVE AT NIGHT by someone whose name I can’t remember … but she won a Newbery Award for another children’s book. I think the main problem with institutionalized care is that "good" is so rarely an appropriate modifier.  Financial factors tend to separate the two. Best wishes.                                                                 Sue T. A new dream:  the best interests of and full equality for adoptees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?"  I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes.  As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us.  Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim.  T. I. Catwin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For anyone truly interested in current first person accounts of orphanage life, two of the best books I’ve seen are: The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage by Richard McKenzie and Where Courage Is Like a Wild Horse: The World of an Indian Orphanage by Sharon Skolnick. And for a fictionalized account of the Hebrew Home for Boys in NYC, see DAVE AT NIGHT by someone whose name I can’t remember … but she won a Newbery Award for another children’s book. I think the main problem with institutionalized care is that "good" is so rarely an appropriate modifier.  Financial factors tend to separate the two. Best wishes. Sue T. A new dream:  the best interests of and full equality for adoptees.

Here are excerpts from two recent articles on an institutional effort in Minnesota, with urls for those who would like the complete articles: J. Published: Sunday, May 7, 2000 MODELED ON BOYS TOWN Children’s futures drive Copeland’s dream If enough people think of a thing and work hard enough at it, I guess it’s pretty nearly bound to happen, wind and weather permitting. “On the Shores of Silver Lake” by Laura Ingalls Wilder, (1939) Hang out with Mary Jo Copeland for any amount of time, and you’ll leave thinking she’s the wind, weather and a crowd of determined people. Copeland, who founded Sharing & Caring Hands in Minneapolis, has announced plans for a children’s home in Brooklyn Center. The children, ages about 4 to 11, will be residents of the apartment-like building comprising two wings and including a gym, library and large communal kitchen. The kids will live eight to an apartment with an adult. The home will be administered by a religious order of nuns. Copeland compares the residence to Omaha’s Boys Town, Father Flanagan’s home for orphans and wayward youth. Most will have parents who are living. But the spirit of Boys Town will be carried forward, she hopes, where throwaway children come into a caring, enriching and stable environment for the first time in their young lives. Major funding for the $24 million project will come from the Target Corporation and other business sponsors. Hoops yet to be cleared include zoning approvals for the home from the Brooklyn Center City Council. For the rest of the story: http://www.pioneerplanet.com/search?NS-search-page=document&NS-rel-do… e=/opinion/docs/030522.htm&NS-query=%22caring+hands%22&NS-search-type=NS-b oolean-query&NS-collection=PioneerPlanet&NS-docs-matched=6&NS-doc-number=2 and Published: Thursday, May 11, 2000 DeborahLocke Editorial Writer A change of heart Mary Jo Copeland won’t take no for an answer. Her latest plan to build a children’s home in Brooklyn Center is meeting civic opposition, but she says she can win over the opponents and she won’t be put off. Today’s installment in this yearlong series on the homeless represents a change of pace. So far, we have profiled individuals with an emphasis on the events that make a person homeless. This week, inspired by news events, I decided to focus on an entire class of people who are homeless: children. Since January, I’ve seen kids in meal lines with parents or in waiting facilities during the day. At night, I’ve seen children with their parents as they prepared them for sleep in a homeless shelter when family residences were filled to capacity. Mary Jo Copeland, founder and director of Sharing & Caring Hands in Minneapolis, sees hundreds of these children each month. Many are from Ramsey County. After almost 15 years of working with the poor through her charity organization, she started efforts to build a children’s home in Brooklyn Center to bring kids stability, discipline and love. Challenges lie ahead. Brooklyn Center has not exactly opened its arms to her. The city of 28,000 north of Minneapolis has a comprehensive zoning plan that specifies what can be built where. Copeland says she has a comprehensive reality: 200 homeless, parentless kids. She purchased six acres of land adjacent to the Earle Brown Heritage Center, and hopes to complete the project there and begin admitting children the summer of 2002. Blueprints depict an apartment-like complex for around 190 children; later the buildings could be expanded to hold 256 children, if the need arose. The idea is to keep siblings in large families together, something the foster system rarely accomplishes. The kids would live eight to an apartment, two to a bedroom, with a supervising adult who may be a member of a religious order. Copeland and city officials are trying to schedule a meeting soon to review the site plans. A public hearing probably will follow. The reaction from Brooklyn Center residents has been very negative, said City Manager Michael McCauley. From the city’s perspective, doubts exist about the density restrictions for the area that is zoned for commercial use. Additionally, how will the school district accommodate more kids in light of its current space crunch? For the rest of the story: http://www.pioneerplanet.com/search?NS-search-page=document&NS-rel-do… e=/opinion/ocl_docs/001818.htm&NS-query=%22caring+hands%22&NS-search-type= NS-boolean-query&NS-collection=PioneerPlanet&NS-docs-matched=6&NS-doc-numbe r=1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?"  I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes.  As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us.  Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim.  T. I. Catwin

Response:

Linda, Are you really backing this petition?  Do you really believe we should abolish adoption? Just wondering. Nancy, –Not only no, but HELL NO!  Lori and I had a couple of emails on Open Records, and Baby Dumping.  I told her I *fully* supported her in that –

Why not?  Are there any studies that show adoptive/foster families are better for children than good institutionalization?

Response:

I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?"  I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes.  As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us.  Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim.  T. I. Catwin

Response:

It’s neat to find someone here who’s actually done the research. Would the outcomes differ by the age of the child? There are a lot of people who voluntarily institutionalise their children by sending them to boarding schools for 9 months of the year. Of course it’s not the same thing at all, and yet maybe that’s a paradign for how a good institution might work. Or is it a matter of the child believing that there is someone, some adult, to whom its welfare is extremely important? Rupa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?"  I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes.  As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us.  Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim.  T. I. Catwin

Response:

Linda, Are you really backing this petition?  Do you really believe we should abolish adoption? Just wondering.

Nancy, –Not only no, but HELL NO!  Lori and I had a couple of emails on Open Records, and Baby Dumping.  I told her I *fully* supported her in that – and everything else she is doing for that matter.  Somehow, abolish adoption came in to the equation.  I can’t in my wildest imagination understand why anyone would want to do that.  But, I have been busy with personal issues, and I have had like 30 emails from Lori and Jeep in the last couple of days, and I have over 2,500 unanswered emails sitting in here. I should have at least glanced at them.  I’m only answering this to you right now because of the subject line.  And I, unfortunately, will be answering a bunch of them in the next few days.  Which will take me away from my mission on getting Medicaid on the side of getting rid of baby dumping.  But I want you all to know where I stand.     –I have asked her to explain to my why we would want to abolish it, and I am not clear on the answer.  Something about conservative person or guardianship.  I don’t know.  But I guess by the end of the day I will know.  <sigh I had such a headache on this issue yesterday I had to get off line.  I shudder to think what is going out in alt.adoption and the rest of them.     –But unequivacably NO, I do not support abolishing adoption.  I am all FOR Open Adoption.  I probably should be answering Lori directly first, but I want to stop this before it spreads to far too fast.  It doesn’t make sense to me – at present.  But when I hear what she has to say, and I will have to be "baby stepped" through it –  if it makes sense to me, then I will support it.  But right now, no.     –This was an unfortunate cross communication between Lori and I – plain and simple.  I don’t want everyone thinking Lori just threw my name out there on purpose, because I know she would never do that.  Lori is afraid that now, if I back off the sponsorship I will appear wishy washy.  Well, consider me wishy washy then.  I’ve been called worse!     –I will look for the original email she sent me, and read it again.  And I apologize right here and now if it clearly said that – but I don’t think it did.  And I never polled *anyone* on this issue.  Not one person.  I make my own opinions on issues, and if I don’t think it is a good idea, I don’t need even 2 people to tell me it is a good idea – or a bad idea for that matter.  Lori, however, did write me back and said she didn’t mean to include me in that statement.  She said she knows I didn’t poll anyone.     –This is an unfortunate mistake.  And I’ll take the heat on it, because I flat did not see that in her email.  We were talking about Open Records and Baby Dumping.  She had an attachment that I understood had a virus, so I didn’t open it.  Guess that was it.     –Those of you who know me, know very well how I feel on those issues.  I have never had a conversation with anyone on abolishing adoption – ‘cept in the last day or two with Lori.     –I will answer you all personally shortly, I will not answer directly anyone on alt.adoption unless you personally write to me.  I have more than enough mail as it is to respond to.  I don’t mean to be rude, but to me, it is counterproductive to read emails that will just piss me off – alt.adoption tends to do that to me.   If you want me to read it, write to me personally.     –Again, I apologize MOST SINCERELY for this miscommunication, and I will resolve the situation with Lori personally, if she will let me. — Linda S. Hammer The Seeker, Reuniting America! http://www.the-seeker.com Find all your missing friends, relatives, classmates, military pals, heirs & beneficiaries, birth parents, adoptees, or missing child.  If you can’t find your missing friend or relative through The Seeker, they have left the planet!

Response:

PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents.

Except that the child is not necessarily placed with one family in a permanent arrangement.  A colleague "fostered" a 10 year old boy who had been with his original foster family since he was a year old.  (The foster family decided to give him up to avoid the difficult teen years, and besides he was getting in the way of an overseas trip they were hanging out for.  They obviously did not commit to him for the long haul of parenting.) He was unattached and showing signs of major emotional disorders which is hardly a surprise. Things may have been different if he had the emotional security of a committed adoptive family from his earliest days in the "care" system. Another kid I met through the school system was on her fourth foster placement since her mother had died when she was a toddler. (She was 10 years old) M

Response:

Oops, I missed these two replies. Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed. And yet adoptions continue to occur.

Yes they do but they longer encourage adoptions as a first option being in the long term interest of the child. In Oz it’s now the last option when all other alternatives  are unavailable. The Oz Govt doesn’t have a say in the manner in which other countries adoption counselling and procedures occur. We only have a right to exploit them. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965. So it isn’t only private infant adoptions that were outlawed.

All privately arranged adoptions that were often ‘done behind the dunny door’ were outlawed, regardless of the child’s age.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents. Except that the child is not necessarily placed with one family in a permanent arrangement.  A colleague "fostered" a 10 year old boy who had been with his original foster family since he was a year old.  (The foster family decided to give him up to avoid the difficult teen years, and besides he was getting in the way of an overseas trip they were hanging out for.  They obviously did not commit to him for the long haul of parenting.) He was unattached and showing signs of major emotional disorders which is hardly a surprise. Things may have been different if he had the emotional security of a committed adoptive family from his earliest days in the "care" system. Another kid I met through the school system was on her fourth foster placement since her mother had died when she was a toddler. (She was 10 years old) M

You are confusing permanent placement with foster care. Two entirely different setups. Unlike foster care, permanent placement is a legal arrangement. Adoption holds no assurances either. While the adoption remains permanent on paper it doesn’t assure the child of a permanent relationship with their adopters. No piece of paper can guarantee security. Only the quality of the relationship can do that.

Response:

Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. 73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247… Yes–year over year, adoptions seem to be increasing.

The combined number of O/S and local adoptions only adds up to around 500 Oz wide in total at this point. Down from even a decade ago.  And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Do you mean permanent care orders? I believe that it is one of the institutions.

PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents. It’s much like adoption without the state owning the child’s identity, removing his legal status and relationship to his own family members, denying him his medical history etc as is the case in adoption. He remains a member of both families with his guardians bearing the responsibiliy of all the decision making during his childhood. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz. Private adoptions are.

Privately ‘arranged’ adoption always have been. Private adoption ‘agencies’ licenced by the state still exist.  Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Yes we do. We know what’s officially recorded.

True. But then if they’re not officially recorded, they’re not adoptions.

Response:

Kindly explain to me how my daughter would be better off growing up in a third world orphanage as opposed to having two loving parents. In other words, you are painting with too broad a brush.  I am not dismissing what you’ve written here at all.  I merely want to point out that in this imperfect world adoption can be beneficial to children Linda PS  Ask kids in foster care if they would like to remain in foster care or be adopted.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared  in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be.  But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed.

And yet adoptions continue to occur. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965.

So it isn’t only private infant adoptions that were outlawed. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. 73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247…

Yes–year over year, adoptions seem to be increasing.  And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Do you mean permanent care orders?

I believe that it is one of the institutions. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz.

Private adoptions are.  Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Yes we do.

We know what’s officially recorded.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared  in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be.  But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder.

Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed.  The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there.

Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965.   Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing.

73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247…   And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption.

Do you mean permanent care orders?  Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created.

Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz.   Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?

Yes we do.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared  in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be.  But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder.  The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing.  And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption.  Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created.  Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Private adoptions in Australia have not recently been prohibited. They have been illegal for many decades and to the best of my knowledge were not associated with any reduction in domestic adoptions. There has never been any prohibition on adoptions here and no reason to believe there has been a black market created in adoptions. Rather the numbers of children available for adoption fell dramatically from the early 1970s after the Whitlam government introduced benefits for single mothers raising their children, social attitudes changed, abortion and birth control became more readily available, step-parent adoptions were discouraged, and states such as Victoria introduced alternative provisions such as permanent care orders which took the place of adoption orders for some children. For details on the number of adoptions occurring in Australia currently and over the last few decades see the annual publication produced by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare called "Adoptions Australia" http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/aa03-04/aa03-04.pdf Last year saw an overall increase of 6% in the numbers of children adopted in Australia.  Intercountry adoptions increased by 33% and domestic adoptions fell.  I believe intercountry adoptions are continuing to increase substantially.  Two weeks ago I spoke at one of our bi-annual information days for prospective intercountry adoptive parents.  We had double the number of prospective applicants than we’d previously had, and as a response to that increased interest our govt Adoption Unit has had to schedule two intake seminars for May and July rather than the usual one seminar.

Thank you for the clarifications. Certainly, the things you mention are one way of looking at the fall in intracountry adoptions and are the facts that tend to be emphasized by the Australian government.  The government’s strong policy to discourage such adoptions is another way of looking at it.  Clearly, from the facts you recite, there remains a strong interest in adoption.  I would be surprised if adoption is the one area in which a government prohibition was not complemented by some kind of black market.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared  in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

Could be.  But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder.  The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing.  And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption.  Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created.  Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.

No it won’t die.  I just came back from let’s say…. hanging with the industry…and what I saw was staggering in it’s paranoia and fear. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared  in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be.  But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder.  The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing.  And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption.  Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created.  Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?

Private adoptions in Australia have not recently been prohibited. They have been illegal for many decades and to the best of my knowledge were not associated with any reduction in domestic adoptions. There has never been any prohibition on adoptions here and no reason to believe there has been a black market created in adoptions. Rather the numbers of children available for adoption fell dramatically from the early 1970s after the Whitlam government introduced benefits for single mothers raising their children, social attitudes changed, abortion and birth control became more readily available, step-parent adoptions were discouraged, and states such as Victoria introduced alternative provisions such as permanent care orders which took the place of adoption orders for some children. For details on the number of adoptions occurring in Australia currently and over the last few decades see the annual publication produced by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare called "Adoptions Australia" http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/aa03-04/aa03-04.pdf Last year saw an overall increase of 6% in the numbers of children adopted in Australia.  Intercountry adoptions increased by 33% and domestic adoptions fell.  I believe intercountry adoptions are continuing to increase substantially.  Two weeks ago I spoke at one of our bi-annual information days for prospective intercountry adoptive parents.  We had double the number of prospective applicants than we’d previously had, and as a response to that increased interest our govt Adoption Unit has had to schedule two intake seminars for May and July rather than the usual one seminar. Julia

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is.

You mean he wishes you were his family but can’t see you as such? Do you both have the same bio-dad? He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean?

He sounds pretty odd…if he’s well-off enough to own two houses, one wouldn’t think he’d be stealing. Could be pathological, I guess. so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess!

That sounds deranged. Did his bio-dad have mental health problems? As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not

involved, You do realize that isn’t precisely the normal procedure? I’m not sure what the purpose would be. Did it happen, to your mother’s knowledge, all across Australia, or only at certain hospitals or in certain states? for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative.

That’s not what foster kids say, though. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.

No, not at all. We do have people affected by adoption — adoptees, birthparents, adoptive parents — discussing various related topics, and a good many unrelated ones. Attitudes to adoption range from unreservedly for to equally unreservedly against. I’m not sure if there’s a critical mass of "kept kids" who want to discuss this their adopted siblings. You could try adoption.com — it’s a moderated group, and gets quite a range of traffic. You’re welcome to stick around here, for that matter — we used to be the scariest ng on Usenet, but we’re mellower now, and you may not even need this virtual Flame-retardant armor… Rupa

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. No it won’t die.  I just came back from let’s say…. hanging with the industry…and what I saw was staggering in it’s paranoia and fear.

Could you expand on that a little?  I know they have reason to be apprehensive, given the conflicts and other problems that are built into what they do.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.

I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared  in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Robin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is. He is drinking himself into the dirt, and he gets into trouble for awful things- he beats people up a lot, especially asians, and steals off people, drunk driving, etc. Knowing my mother and her story, living with the people that adopted him and comparing that life with what he sees when he comes to Perth is such a huge, strange paradox for him – understandably, of course. He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean? He is so used to suppressing his wishes, or true ideals, it is easy for him to think one thing and do the other – sorry, I’m not explaining anything right today; All I’m saying is that on the surface and deep down he has a confusion that he can see we don’t have, so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess! As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not involved, I’ve just been able to witness the flip side of the coin, so to speak. I am 100% against adoption, however, there are always special circumstances, and for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.

Are you by any chance the scriptwriter for ‘Home and Away’? You’re just giving an idea a test run here, is that it? Robin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley

Institutions morph.  They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.

Response:

My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch.

I had heard about hospital kidnappings, but not that branding was part of the procedure? certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with.

Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa

Response:

Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa

No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is. He is drinking himself into the dirt, and he gets into trouble for awful things- he beats people up a lot, especially asians, and steals off people, drunk driving, etc. Knowing my mother and her story, living with the people that adopted him and comparing that life with what he sees when he comes to Perth is such a huge, strange paradox for him – understandably, of course. He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean? He is so used to suppressing his wishes, or true ideals, it is easy for him to think one thing and do the other – sorry, I’m not explaining anything right today; All I’m saying is that on the surface and deep down he has a confusion that he can see we don’t have, so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess! As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not involved, I’ve just been able to witness the flip side of the coin, so to speak. I am 100% against adoption, however, there are always special circumstances, and for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.

Response:

If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there. You appear to be posting from Western Australia. I thought domestic infant adoption had almost totaly ceased in Australia some years ago. Robin

Doh!  Someone from Origins must have internet prvileges! The good news…   serial killings and suicides are down 87% in Australia since the death of infant adoption. Dad

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there

Dont’ worry.  The adoption industry is eating itself.  We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.

gee.. i;m sorry that you and your mother had such horrid experiences.. i certainly don’t condone what she went through, but there are also plenty of people out there for whom adoption has been a blessing.. on all sides… no one promises that every adoption will be wonderful.. no one promises that every birth family will be wonderful….

Response:

No. it still happens, just not very often M

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.

Ooooooooooooooookay. — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.

You appear to be posting from Western Australia. I thought domestic infant adoption had almost totaly ceased in Australia some years ago. Robin

Response:

I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.

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Question:

Hillary Rodham Clinton Criticizes Bush Abortion Stance Last Update: 3/7/2005         12:48:33 PM New York, NY (AP) 03/07/05 – Senator Hillary Clinton says the Bush administration’s policy of withholding aid from overseas groups that perform abortions is hurting women and forcing clinics to close. Clinton spoke yesterday at a New York University forum to mark the 10th anniversary of the United Nations’ fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing. She said 20 million women worldwide risk unsafe abortions every year, 68,000 die and many more are injured. President Bush reinstituted the so-called global gag rule when he took office. Under the rule, overseas non-governmental organizations that perform abortions or advocate the legalization of abortion are ineligible for US government money. Bush opposes abortion except in cases of rape or incest or when pregnancy endangers a woman’s life.

Response:

South Dakota may get stricter abortion law Rene Sanchez,  Star Tribune March 12, 2005 SIOUX FALLS, S.D. — Once a week, women with unwanted pregnancies file through the fortified doors of a clinic here that is the only place in the state where they can choose to have an abortion. Before they arrive, most comply with South Dakota law by calling a recorded message from a physician telling them that the procedure rarely causes medical complications. But the clinic’s doctors, all of whom fly in from the Twin Cities, soon may be forced to read a new script from the state. They would be required to tell women in person that abortion terminates the life of a "whole, separate, unique, living human being." They would have to say the procedure can lead to depression and suicide, and give women a list of adoption agencies — all less than two hours before their appointments. "We just want women to know all the circumstances," said Roger Hunt, the GOP legislator who proposed the steps in a bill that just won easy passage in the South Dakota Legislature but still needs the approval of Republican Gov. Mike Rounds. "What’s wrong with giving them more information?" Hunt’s legislation, which would give South Dakota one of the nation’s most restrictive abortion consent laws, is a sign of how abortion opponents across the country are shifting tactics as they wait and hope for a different Supreme Court to reconsider Roe vs. Wade, the 1973 ruling legalizing abortion. In Minnesota, legislators are considering a bill called "The Positive Alternatives Act" that would give $5 million to women’s health groups that discourage abortion. The measure, which was introduced with bipartisan support and has the backing of Gov. Tim Pawlenty, would not allow clinics that present abortion as an option to receive any of the money. Florida Gov. Jeb Bush recently proposed a similar step and said his office, not the state’s health department, would decide which pregnancy centers would get new grants to promote alternatives to abortion. Indiana’s Senate passed a bill last month that would require clinics that perform abortions to tell women they can view an ultrasound of the fetus and hear a heartbeat, if there is one, before they decide to terminate their pregnancy. Abortion-rights advocates also are calling the recent request by Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline for the medical files of women and girls who have had late-term abortions an example of new moves by abortion foes to harass physicians and patients. But Kline said he wants the records only to investigate potential cases of sexual abuse. A brush with a ban A year ago, South Dakota came close to outlawing virtually all abortions. But Rounds, a staunch opponent of abortion, blocked the measure on technical grounds, saying he feared that court challenges to it could put the state’s existing abortion regulations in jeopardy. An attempt to revive the ban fizzled this year. Instead, South Dakota legislators decided to put more requirements on doctors who perform abortions and to approve a measure that would automatically make abortion illegal if the Supreme Court gives states that right. Both sides in the debate over the bills predict Rounds will sign them into law. But he has not made his intentions clear. The new requirements that South Dakota legislators want doctors to follow resemble changes Minnesota made to its abortion consent law nearly two years ago. Now, physicians in Minnesota must notify a woman at least 24 hours before she gets an abortion of the medical risks associated with it and also brief her on fetal development. Tim Stanley, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Minnesota, said South Dakota’s step "appears more Draconian." Kate Looby, director of Planned Parenthood in South Dakota, which runs the Sioux Falls clinic, denounced the legislation as an unconstitutional scare tactic targeting pregnant women that would obligate doctors to tell medical lies. "This would force doctors to recite state ideology, not medical science," Looby said. The American Psychiatric Association told Congress last fall that "the vast majority" of women have no serious mental distress after an abortion. But abortion foes contend some studies suggest the procedure puts women at risk of psychiatric problems. At the clinic The Sioux Falls clinic, on a busy boulevard on the western edge of the city, administers about 800 abortions a year. One morning this week, its waiting room was filled with more than a dozen women in the early stages of their pregnancies. Some had driven several hundred miles. The clinic relies on four doctors from the Twin Cities who are near the end of their careers; Looby said it is getting more difficult to find doctors old enough to remember abortion before Roe vs. Wade. Every week, one of the doctors flies to Sioux Falls for the day to administer abortions either surgically or with medication. Several women waiting for an abortion said they had listened to the clinic’s recording about the procedure and had discussed issues with a doctor and clinic workers once they arrived. State law allows the clinic to perform only first-trimester abortions. "People keep asking me if I have any more questions," said one woman who spoke on the condition she remain anonymous. She said she already had three children and would be overburdened by another. She had ruled out adoption because she did not want to carry the pregnancy to term. Amy Groetken, 38, is a volunteer at the clinic who often holds the hands of women while they have an abortion. "We try hard to make sure this is what they want to do. Sometimes women walk out," she said. But abortion opponents say the clinic does not offer nearly enough counseling before it gives abortions — and that some women who have them feel anguish and misled afterward. Nicole Osmundson, a nurse at a Sioux Falls pregnancy clinic called the Alpha Center, said some women have told her they were not given details about adoption or fetal development. "They were told, if anything, that it was just a blob of tissue," Osmundson said. "Many women tell me they wish they had received more information." Hunt, the sponsor of the abortion consent bill, said imposing new requirements on physicians who perform abortions would give women more reason to reflect on their decision. "Many times a family member, a husband or boyfriend, even doctors, are saying, ‘Let’s get on with it,’ " Hunt said. Abortion-rights advocates called Hunt’s rationale a clever but deceiving case for the bill. "There’s a national movement to a more moderate public position," Stanley said. "But if you look closer at what they’re doing in legislatures, it’s a slam." Rob Regier, executive director of the South Dakota Family Policy Council, said abortion foes are embracing new strategies because the battle over banning abortion last year before any new Supreme Court ruling on the subject was counterproductive. "They’re a year wiser," he said. Regier said he is confident the legislature’s latest steps will help reduce the number of abortions in South Dakota. "This lays the groundwork for a total ban in the near future," he said.

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Question:

We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. Jenna Steele My Forever Family http://www.my4everfamily.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. Jenna Steele My Forever Family http://www.my4everfamily.com

OK give me a starter, what rhymes with adoption? Umm…just what the world of adoption needs, not, yet more naff adoption poetry. What is it that gives people involved with adoption the delusion that they can write poems? The Adoption Papers (Bloodaxe, 1991) is an anthology of Jackie Kay’s poems about her search etc. The only adoption poetry that I’ve ever read that didn’t send me flying to the bathroom. Her first novel, Trumpet, sounds like a good read and has an adoption aspect as well.  Inspired by the life of musician Billy Tipton, the novel tells the story of Scottish jazz trumpeter Joss Moody whose death revealed that he was, in fact, a woman. Kay develops the narrative through the voices of Moody’s wife, his adopted son and a journalist from a tabloid newspaper. Perhaps you could enlist her help Robin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. Jenna Steele My Forever Family http://www.my4everfamily.com OK give me a starter, what rhymes with adoption? Umm…just what the world of adoption needs, not, yet more naff adoption poetry. What is it that gives people involved with adoption the delusion that they can write poems?

[[[[ SHUDDDERS ]]]] Adoption poetry is one of the major causes of adult diabetes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Adoption Papers (Bloodaxe, 1991) is an anthology of Jackie Kay’s poems about her search etc. The only adoption poetry that I’ve ever read that didn’t send me flying to the bathroom. Her first novel, Trumpet, sounds like a good read and has an adoption aspect as well.   Inspired by the life of musician Billy Tipton, the novel tells the story of Scottish jazz trumpeter Joss Moody whose death revealed that he was, in fact, a woman. Kay develops the narrative through the voices of Moody’s wife, his adopted son and a journalist from a tabloid newspaper. Perhaps you could enlist her help Robin

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What the Hell does the tacky pink, yellow and white silicon bracelets you’re peddling on your pathetic site, have to do with adoption?  Sign me up for 10.

Umm….silicon, I feel a nasty bout of silicosis coming on.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. OK give me a starter, what rhymes with adoption? Umm…just what the world of adoption needs, not, yet more naff adoption poetry. What is it that gives people involved with adoption the delusion that they can write poems? [[[[ SHUDDDERS ]]]] Adoption poetry is one of the major causes of adult diabetes.

The Birthfather’s Lament "Of course I’m on the pill", she said,     Before she lured me to her bed. That’s good cuz in the morning light     She wasn’t as hot as she was last night. Must have been that booze I drank     Makes a goddess out of a skank. 6 months later I picked up the phone.     On the other end was the chick I boned. "Remember the night we had all that fun?     I’m knocked up and you’re the one. Got a relinquishment form for you to sign     Then everything will be just fine." I wouldn’t feel so addlepated     If I’d just stayed sober and masturbated.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. OK give me a starter, what rhymes with adoption? Umm…just what the world of adoption needs, not, yet more naff adoption poetry. What is it that gives people involved with adoption the delusion that they can write poems? [[[[ SHUDDDERS ]]]] Adoption poetry is one of the major causes of adult diabetes. The Birthfather’s Lament "Of course I’m on the pill", she said,    Before she lured me to her bed. That’s good cuz in the morning light    She wasn’t as hot as she was last night. Must have been that booze I drank    Makes a goddess out of a skank. 6 months later I picked up the phone.    On the other end was the chick I boned. "Remember the night we had all that fun?    I’m knocked up and you’re the one. Got a relinquishment form for you to sign    Then everything will be just fine." I wouldn’t feel so addlepated    If I’d just stayed sober and masturbated.

LOL!  Bravo! — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. OK give me a starter, what rhymes with adoption? Umm…just what the world of adoption needs, not, yet more naff adoption poetry. What is it that gives people involved with adoption the delusion that they can write poems? [[[[ SHUDDDERS ]]]] Adoption poetry is one of the major causes of adult diabetes. The Birthfather’s Lament "Of course I’m on the pill", she said,    Before she lured me to her bed. That’s good cuz in the morning light    She wasn’t as hot as she was last night. Must have been that booze I drank    Makes a goddess out of a skank. 6 months later I picked up the phone.    On the other end was the chick I boned. "Remember the night we had all that fun?    I’m knocked up and you’re the one. Got a relinquishment form for you to sign    Then everything will be just fine." I wouldn’t feel so addlepated    If I’d just stayed sober and masturbated.

BRAVO!!!! KL —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

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just stayed sober and masturbated. BRAVO!!!! KL —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption

=—- Hmph.  I wanted you guys to contribute too.  Do a haiku or something. LOL

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We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. Jenna Steele My Forever Family http://www.my4everfamily.com

Where’s Henry when we need him?  In his absence: I think that I shall never see A kid so ugly on my knee. A kid whose jellied mouth is prest Against my thousand dollar vest; A kid that looks at naught all day, And flutters lips about to spray; A kid that may in some years bear A nest of vipers in his hair; Upon whose gut my food has lain; And caused such truly awful pain. Poems are made by fools like me, But only he’s  an adoptee.   J. Killme

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You all are so bad! Wish I were as eloquent – I’d love to write a mordant poem about international adoption agencies. Yet I don’t think Jenna Steele would like to see these poems on her website. Pity. They’re quite educational. Elizabeth

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -just stayed sober and masturbated. BRAVO!!!! KL —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—- Hmph.  I wanted you guys to contribute too.  Do a haiku or something. LOL

A bitter winter: Across the sea a lone child With no birth mother.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -just stayed sober and masturbated. BRAVO!!!! KL —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—- Hmph.  I wanted you guys to contribute too.  Do a haiku or something. LOL

By me a Lexus, I never got a pony. Now I want my due! Julia

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are looking for individuals-Birthparents, Adoptive Parents and Adoptees to submit original poems to share in our poems section. Poems can be both positve or negative. OK give me a starter, what rhymes with adoption? Umm…just what the world of adoption needs, not, yet more naff adoption poetry. What is it that gives people involved with adoption the delusion that they can write poems? [[[[ SHUDDDERS ]]]] Adoption poetry is one of the major causes of adult diabetes. The Birthfather’s Lament "Of course I’m on the pill", she said,    Before she lured me to her bed. That’s good cuz in the morning light    She wasn’t as hot as she was last night. Must have been that booze I drank    Makes a goddess out of a skank. 6 months later I picked up the phone.    On the other end was the chick I boned. "Remember the night we had all that fun?    I’m knocked up and you’re the one. Got a relinquishment form for you to sign    Then everything will be just fine." I wouldn’t feel so addlepated    If I’d just stayed sober and masturbated.

That’s a brilliant piece of poetic work, one of the finest examples of the ‘adoption poetry’ genre that  I’ve seen a in very long time, I do hope you are going to be submitting it to Ms Steele’s web site. I’ve always thought myself that the limerick is a much neglected poetic form in the world of adoption poetry and that perhaps we should all try and rectify that situation. There was young adoptee from Australia Who liked to air his urino-genital paraphernalia To shock was not his desire He simply wanted it there ready, to put out a fire

Question:

AdoptaDad: No, I’m not an attorney.  I work in the public sector. Thank you for the other post. It about sums it all up. Elizabeth Case

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom.

Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom. Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom

I really really love this site.  LOL http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/ A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom. Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom I really really love this site.  LOL http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/

I was wondering whatever had happened to Peter Noone, when did he have the operation? http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/14.html Robin

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom. Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom I went to high school with a girl from a very large family who reportedly had two brothers, Ajax and Babbo, who I unfortunately never met. I just read tonight that one of ODB’s sons is named Prince Osiris.  I like that one. Osiris is good. ‘Lord’ would have been better though, I think. That O.D.B spread himself around a bit. I wonder if there’s an Isis in his brood. Anyway, I’m glad he named his son with forethought. Rh. Marley

He must have been trying to break Screamin’ Jay Hawkins’ record. Marley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom. Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom I went to high school with a girl from a very large family who reportedly had two brothers, Ajax and Babbo, who I unfortunately never met. I just read tonight that one of ODB’s sons is named Prince Osiris.  I like that one.

Osiris is good. ‘Lord’ would have been better though, I think. That O.D.B spread himself around a bit. I wonder if there’s an Isis in his brood. Anyway, I’m glad he named his son with forethought. Rh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom Dildo is a perfectly fine name and child should be proud to carry..  Isn’t there a town called Bastard though?  I think it’s in Ontario. Marley

And here I thought calling someone dildo meant he was a mindless prick. J. Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom. Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom

I went to high school with a girl from a very large family who reportedly had two brothers, Ajax and Babbo, who I unfortunately never met. I just read tonight that one of ODB’s sons is named Prince Osiris.  I like that one. Marley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They  settled on Atom. Seagrams, eh?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  Maybe if we have another child, I’ll lobby for Cardhu.  Not that it matters what I lobby for–until I carry one for nine months and push it out, I don’t think I’ll ever get the last word. Tom I really really love this site.  LOL http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/

Geez, I wish I’d known about this site a few months ago.  I had a friend suggest that the best way to name a girl was to go through the escort ads in the paper. Tom

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Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m afraid I’m cutting LilMtnCbn’s grass here.  This is from the Chicago Daily Hearald regarding EE adoptions.  I am quoted, as are the usual suspects. It’s a spin from the Alex Pavlis case. http://www.dailyherald.com/mchenry/main_story.asp?intID=3830689# The months, money and mental exercise Amy and Henry Bauer put into their adoption of a Russian child were justified forever the moment they first laid eyes on their 7-month-old son, Dallas. For the Chicago couple, having a child of their own was their lifelong wish, but adoption had come to seem the only option. And the curious, blond-haired, blue-eyed boy they crossed half a world to meet was the answer to their prayers. But when the Bauers finally brought Dallas home in December 2003, they were shocked to see local headlines dominated by the story of a Schaumburg woman accused of beating her recently adopted Russian son to death. As they learned more about the case of Irma Pavlis, though, they became convinced her troubles began even before she met her 6-year-old son, Alex. The Bauers, along with experts on adopting from Russia, wonder if the 32-year-old Pavlis might have been only dangerously unprepared rather than dangerously unstable. Pavlis and her husband, Dino, adopted Alex and his 5-year-old sister independently, after finding the boy on a Web site. On the other hand, the Bauers were assisted every step of the way by one of the 13 adoption agencies they’d interviewed for the task. The merits of using an agency like the Bauers vs. the independent route the Pavlises took are debatable. But industry experts and experienced parents say one thing is not: The more information you have about the child beforehand, the better. Trish Janosy is Illinois regional director of European Adoption Consultants, the agency the Bauers used to adopt Dallas. Janosy said that only with the right level of preparedness and support should any adoption take place. In the case of the Pavlises, it doesn’t appear either factor was present, she said. In the spotlight Pavlis was a journalist in her native Mexico who met her future husband while studying English in Chicago, said her original attorney, Stuart Goldberg. The couple exchanged love letters for a long time before reconnecting and marrying in the mid-1990s. The decision to adopt came after Pavlis had two miscarriages. Though the couple could have adopted an infant, they thought they could do more good by helping an older child find a home. Coming across Alex’s photo on the Internet, Irma instantly fell in love with him because of his resemblance to her husband, Goldberg said. The adoption process involved two trips to a Russian orphanage, where they met Alex’s biological sister as well. The two children ended up in the facility after being abandoned by their parents when Alex was a year old and his sister only 3 months. The Pavlises decided to adopt them both. But the hard life the children had led made them uncontrollable. That became apparent to the Pavlises as early as the plane ride home, Goldberg said. When they arrived in Schaumburg in early November 2003, things with Alex got worse. He died Dec. 19, 2003, a day after his mother called 911 to report he wasn’t breathing. The Cook County medical examiner’s office ruled Alex’s death a homicide by blunt head trauma. Police said investigators found signs of prior abuse and said Irma Pavlis admitted striking the boy the day before he died and on other occasions. Attorneys for Pavlis say the head injury that killed Alex was self-inflicted, the result of physical and psychological problems – including fetal alcohol syndrome – that Pavlis and her husband had no way of knowing about before their independently conducted adoption. Irma Pavlis is being held in Cook County jail on a $3 million bond awaiting trial. Alex’s sister remains in the custody of a Russian-speaking foster family appointed by the Department of Children and Family Services, though Pavlis’ husband has very limited visitation rights. Emotions aside Though even an agency-guided adoption is no guarantee of avoiding such relatively common problems as fetal alcohol syndrome, most experienced parents say the path the Pavlises took left them the most vulnerable to trouble. It’s unclear why the Pavlises didn’t use an agency when going through the adoption process. And, of course, no one knows for sure whether things would have been different if they had. But Janosy said the path of independent adoption – or any way of streamlining the process – can be dangerous as it cuts out several levels of support. She admits that cutting out an agency can seem tempting to couples intimidated by the costs. Depending on a variety of factors, Eastern European adoptions through an agency can range from $25,000 to $45,000 and take as long as a year or more to complete, industry experts say. Cynthia Teeters, president of the not-for-profit Eastern European Adoption Coalition, said the savings of an independent adoption could bring the cost down to about $20,000. Teeters, however, recommends that at least couples adopting for the first time hire a carefully chosen agency. She believes, too, that post-adoption support is the most necessary step to have in place beforehand, whether from the agency itself or some other source like her not-for-profit. Among the services the Bauers’ agency provided was looking for signs of physical or mental problems in the videos they had of Dallas before going to Russia. The agency also gave the couple practical advice on how to handle the baby during and after the trip. "We were told to examine the child (before leaving the orphanage), and it’s probably something we wouldn’t have thought about," Henry Bauer said. That’s advice Dan and Elizabeth Case of upstate New York wish the agency they’d used had given them before they adopted their 7-month-old son, Cyril, from Russia in November 1999. Though concerned by the listlessness of the baby boy they picked up, it wasn’t until he’d been legally made their son and brought back to their hotel room that they began to realize how sick he was. The first sign came when they changed the boy’s diaper. Cyril had the worst diaper rash they’d ever seen – dead, blackened skin that was already flaking off. Though they tried to alleviate this with ointments, there was an even greater danger hiding inside Cyril’s little body. Days later he suddenly stopped breathing and died, before they’d even left Russia. The cause was diagnosed as an acute infection of the gastrointestinal tract. The Cases were already in the process of adopting a second baby boy, from Bulgaria, when Cyril died. This son, Anguel, was adopted in 2000. Though Anguel was in better physical shape than Cyril, he was later diagnosed with mild spectrum autism. This type of autism often isn’t diagnosed until a child is in school – sometimes several years into school – when higher social and reasoning skills should be developing. Thais Tepper is a Pittsburgh woman who co-founded the Parent Network for the Post-Institutionalized Child and shares the Cases’ skepticism of Eastern European adoption. Tepper’s adopted son is now 14 years old and developmentally disabled. Yet when she went to Romania to adopt him in 1991, she was told she was getting a healthy 18-month-old. What she found was an 18-month-old who weighed only 18 pounds and had no motor skills. Tepper said she later learned that by the definition in use at the time, "a healthy child in Romania is one breathing in and out when you arrive." The best thing adoptive parents today can do for themselves is to be aggressive and never take "no" for an answer in their pursuit of information about a child, Tepper said. "You have to do your homework," she said. "You have to tell them, ‘I want original medical records and I want them translated myself.’ Medical records already translated into English by the agency should be considered suspect." As reasonable as that advice can seem in a calm moment, it can easily be allowed to slip by when overwhelmed by Russian officialdom in the final stages of an adoption, she said. Both Janosy and Teeters said parents need an objective force to guide them through an emotional process. Despite the difficulty of putting protective instincts aside, prospective parents are right to weigh their ability to care for a child with a behavioral problem before making any commitment, Janosy said. "This process is not about saving a child," Janosy said. "This is about building a family. It’s not fair to the child to put expectations on him or her." Just as Irma Pavlis had chosen her son by his resemblance to her husband, Elizabeth Case selected Anguel for his likeness to her own father as a child. Case said she and her husband learned the hard way that even in making as emotional a life choice as adoption, the role of the intellect mustn’t be overlooked. "Don’t believe the hype that God will make it better," she said. "Go with a hard heart, and you’d better be prepared to say no." The root cause Dr. Ira Chasnoff is president of Children’s Research Triangle, a Chicago-based research and clinical program focused on childhood medical issues. He and other experts agree that prospective parents

… read more »

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I’m afraid I’m cutting LilMtnCbn’s grass here.  This is from the Chicago Daily Hearald regarding EE adoptions.  I am quoted, as are the usual suspects.

Please, please cut my grass any time!   Ok, that sounds a bit perverted.  LOL  Sorry about that. Thanks so much for posting!  I hope everybody posts articles they find, and excuse me when I’m bitchy.  It’s usually because: 1)  I’m PWD 2)  It’s that time of the month 3)  It’s a damn press release that couldn’t get published anywhere but the internet under "press release".  Like the ones Joe Soll posts about once a month about himself and his superior interpretation about his own adoption experience.  Like anybody gives a flying fart. Please please, everybody keep posting whatever you find! P.S. to Patty.  Post your own damn articles!  LOL  I am NOT posting the one about the orgasmatron! A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

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I’m afraid I’m cutting LilMtnCbn’s grass here.  This is from the Chicago Daily Hearald regarding EE adoptions.  I am quoted, as are the usual suspects. It’s a spin from the Alex Pavlis case. http://www.dailyherald.com/mchenry/main_story.asp?intID=3830689#

  Are you the same "Elizabeth" I used to correspond with… the attorney?  My memory ain’t what it used to be.  Regardless, I’m so sorry to read about Cyril –  God rest his little soul.   Along the same lines of the article Elizabeth posted, I dug up another post from several years ago. Dad – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -   Parents who adopt children from overseas don’t bug me, it’s the belief that overseas children are "safer" and come with "less issues" than older domestic children.  Many times, that’s simply poppycock.   When it comes to FAS, attachment disorders, failure to thrive, or other medical/emotional conditions due to abuse OR institutionalized care, the kids coming from eastern Europe and the USSR would seem to carry the highest risks for these conditions.   Our agency facilitates both domestic and overseas adoptions.  They have a reputation for finding adoptive families for "hard to place" children.   The (former) director told us that she has personally been involved with a higher *percentage* of overseas adoption disruptions (especially from the aforementioned countries) than domestic older child disruptions.   I realize that is just one person’s anecdotal experience, but I’ll include the article she wrote a couple of years ago below. Dad <begin article From the Director… Barb Holtan Tressler Lutheran Adoption Services Tressler Family Connections March/April 1999 issue Back in February of 1994, we began receiving calls from families we did not know, in states outside of our service area, asking us if we could find another family for the child they had adopted and brought home from Eastern Europe. "We just can’t continue," they would say sadly. "We’ve heard that TLS finds good families for Special kids. Can you do that for our son (or daughter)?" We didn’t think much about this (other than to grieve with these disrupting parents and see how we could help) until the calls kept coming and coming. We started charting these calls and started asking colleagues around the country: What’s happening? Why all these disruption calls? And – Why are they calling us – strangers to them – why aren’t they calling their own agencies? We’ve sure learned a lot about this sad phenomenon since that first contact back in 1994. I wanted to take the opportunity here to tell you at this, the five-year point. I would like to tell you that this was a brief flash in the pan and it has stopped. It hasn’t. The calls continue to come. As of March 31, 1999: – Total number of Eastern European-born children, adopted into the US, whom we have been asked to replace: 78 – That comes out to be 78 in 61 months – more than one request a month, steadily for five years. – Child’s average age when placed with the family: 5.2 years old – Child’s average age when the family called TLS: 7.0 years old (These are averages – youngest child we were asked to replace was 8 months old, eldest child was 15 years old.) – About even on gender: 38 girls; 40 boys. – Countries of origin of the children: Bulgaria -1 Estonia – 3 Georgia – 4 Lithuania – 1 Moldavia – 1 Poland – 2 Romania – 14 Russia – 50 Ukraine – 2 The families who call are sad, angry, scared, disappointed. The behaviors of the children have brought them to their knees. The behaviors they each describe are all so similar and pretty much can be found on the checklists for Reactive Attachment Disorder. Nowadays, by the time the families get to us, they have already had the child tested and evaluated and the parent rattles off to us over the phone the many diagnoses the child has: Attention Deficit Disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Hyperactivity, Learning Disabilities, possible Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, etc. etc. I have become rather tedious on this subject, I know. I have exclaimed about it to colleagues in other agencies, talked about it at Joint Council meetings, consulted with Attachment therapists ("Are you seeing lots of kids adopted from Eastern Europe?")… Many international agency people would like me to clam up and stop already about this subject. Believe me, I’d like to. But then the next call comes from Massachusetts or Illinois or Texas and the story is the same and we try as best we can to help another devastated family. As long as there are adoptions, there will be disruptions. We hate this but we accept it as truth. However, the numbers of disruptions of Eastern European born children are too high – way out of line. Yes, I know that Russia is sending thousands of children to the US for adoption and statistically speaking, 50 kids (see above) is tiny. Yes, I know that the only numbers available are those TLS has been keeping and these comprise a count which is necessarily skewed. No one calls from Idaho to tell me how GREAT their child is doing. Still – there’s too much of it. Kids have been coming for adoption for over 40 years from other countries. Ask anyone who has been around during that time working in this field. If they are being honest, they will attest to the fact that we as a profession have never seen this number of kids with such severe problems all coming from one part of the world resulting in their adoptive families seeking to disrupt the adoption. At the risk of being still more tedious, I will again offer for consideration the following things we at TLS believe in and practice and advocate for all adoptions. This is how to lessen the number of disruptions. Our 27-year-old program placing only Special kids is living proof of this: – Solid, Realistic, Educational pre-adoption Family Preparation (and no, this can’t be achieved in a weekend or a couple of hours) comprised of lots of information, hard questions and a practice of parent SELF-ASSESSMENT as opposed to agency investigation of parents. – Meticulous review of background information on the child by the family and the agency worker – asking questions, pointing out red flags. – Supportive and nurturing post-placement services by the agency which did the Home Study. – Ongoing post-finalization services as needed over time over the life of the family. I.e. – the agency responds whenever and for whatever is needed. EVERY child coming from an orphanage is a Special Needs child – whether s/he is one month old or twelve years old. The sooner placing agencies start leveling with interested families about this fact and prepare families for this, the more likely it will be that TLS will experience a decline in the numbers of disruption calls coming our way. < end article

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom Dildo is a perfectly fine name and child should be proud to carry..  Isn’t there a town called Bastard though?  I think it’s in Ontario. Marley

There are 55 people on the Electoral register in the UK with the surname Bastard.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom

Dildo is a perfectly fine name and child should be proud to carry..  Isn’t there a town called Bastard though?  I think it’s in Ontario. Marley

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Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley

Because Demitri (or whatever his birth name was) didn’t fit in with their parental vision? A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

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Marley: Perhaps Dallas (Dmitry) will meet Aspen or Dakota.  They’re have a baby and call her Paris or Moscow. Elizabeth

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Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley

Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good story–and always good when you’re part of it.  Why in the world did they name their kid Dallas?  Shouldn’t there be a law against that? Mareley Perhaps they thought Poughkeepsie would be too confusing for the youngster? I know it’s too confusing for me.  I was lobbying my wife for some good, simple Canadian place names, something like Wawa or Dildo, for our kids.  She wouldn’t relent. Tom

Bwaaaa!  A friend’s husband wanted to name their son Seagrams.  They settled on Atom. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

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I’m afraid I’m cutting LilMtnCbn’s grass here.  This is from the Chicago Daily Hearald regarding EE adoptions.  I am quoted, as are the usual suspects. It’s a spin from the Alex Pavlis case. http://www.dailyherald.com/mchenry/main_story.asp?intID=3830689# The months, money and mental exercise Amy and Henry Bauer put into their adoption of a Russian child were justified forever the moment they first laid eyes on their 7-month-old son, Dallas. For the Chicago couple, having a child of their own was their lifelong wish, but adoption had come to seem the only option. And the curious, blond-haired, blue-eyed boy they crossed half a world to meet was the answer to their prayers. But when the Bauers finally brought Dallas home in December 2003, they were shocked to see local headlines dominated by the story of a Schaumburg woman accused of beating her recently adopted Russian son to death. As they learned more about the case of Irma Pavlis, though, they became convinced her troubles began even before she met her 6-year-old son, Alex. The Bauers, along with experts on adopting from Russia, wonder if the 32-year-old Pavlis might have been only dangerously unprepared rather than dangerously unstable. Pavlis and her husband, Dino, adopted Alex and his 5-year-old sister independently, after finding the boy on a Web site. On the other hand, the Bauers were assisted every step of the way by one of the 13 adoption agencies they’d interviewed for the task. The merits of using an agency like the Bauers vs. the independent route the Pavlises took are debatable. But industry experts and experienced parents say one thing is not: The more information you have about the child beforehand, the better. Trish Janosy is Illinois regional director of European Adoption Consultants, the agency the Bauers used to adopt Dallas. Janosy said that only with the right level of preparedness and support should any adoption take place. In the case of the Pavlises, it doesn’t appear either factor was present, she said. In the spotlight Pavlis was a journalist in her native Mexico who met her future husband while studying English in Chicago, said her original attorney, Stuart Goldberg. The couple exchanged love letters for a long time before reconnecting and marrying in the mid-1990s. The decision to adopt came after Pavlis had two miscarriages. Though the couple could have adopted an infant, they thought they could do more good by helping an older child find a home. Coming across Alex’s photo on the Internet, Irma instantly fell in love with him because of his resemblance to her husband, Goldberg said. The adoption process involved two trips to a Russian orphanage, where they met Alex’s biological sister as well. The two children ended up in the facility after being abandoned by their parents when Alex was a year old and his sister only 3 months. The Pavlises decided to adopt them both. But the hard life the children had led made them uncontrollable. That became apparent to the Pavlises as early as the plane ride home, Goldberg said. When they arrived in Schaumburg in early November 2003, things with Alex got worse. He died Dec. 19, 2003, a day after his mother called 911 to report he wasn’t breathing. The Cook County medical examiner’s office ruled Alex’s death a homicide by blunt head trauma. Police said investigators found signs of prior abuse and said Irma Pavlis admitted striking the boy the day before he died and on other occasions. Attorneys for Pavlis say the head injury that killed Alex was self-inflicted, the result of physical and psychological problems – including fetal alcohol syndrome – that Pavlis and her husband had no way of knowing about before their independently conducted adoption. Irma Pavlis is being held in Cook County jail on a $3 million bond awaiting trial. Alex’s sister remains in the custody of a Russian-speaking foster family appointed by the Department of Children and Family Services, though Pavlis’ husband has very limited visitation rights. Emotions aside Though even an agency-guided adoption is no guarantee of avoiding such relatively common problems as fetal alcohol syndrome, most experienced parents say the path the Pavlises took left them the most vulnerable to trouble. It’s unclear why the Pavlises didn’t use an agency when going through the adoption process. And, of course, no one knows for sure whether things would have been different if they had. But Janosy said the path of independent adoption – or any way of streamlining the process – can be dangerous as it cuts out several levels of support. She admits that cutting out an agency can seem tempting to couples intimidated by the costs. Depending on a variety of factors, Eastern European adoptions through an agency can range from $25,000 to $45,000 and take as long as a year or more to complete, industry experts say. Cynthia Teeters, president of the not-for-profit Eastern European Adoption Coalition, said the savings of an independent adoption could bring the cost down to about $20,000. Teeters, however, recommends that at least couples adopting for the first time hire a carefully chosen agency. She believes, too, that post-adoption support is the most necessary step to have in place beforehand, whether from the agency itself or some other source like her not-for-profit. Among the services the Bauers’ agency provided was looking for signs of physical or mental problems in the videos they had of Dallas before going to Russia. The agency also gave the couple practical advice on how to handle the baby during and after the trip. "We were told to examine the child (before leaving the orphanage), and it’s probably something we wouldn’t have thought about," Henry Bauer said. That’s advice Dan and Elizabeth Case of upstate New York wish the agency they’d used had given them before they adopted their 7-month-old son, Cyril, from Russia in November 1999. Though concerned by the listlessness of the baby boy they picked up, it wasn’t until he’d been legally made their son and brought back to their hotel room that they began to realize how sick he was. The first sign came when they changed the boy’s diaper. Cyril had the worst diaper rash they’d ever seen – dead, blackened skin that was already flaking off. Though they tried to alleviate this with ointments, there was an even greater danger hiding inside Cyril’s little body. Days later he suddenly stopped breathing and died, before they’d even left Russia. The cause was diagnosed as an acute infection of the gastrointestinal tract. The Cases were already in the process of adopting a second baby boy, from Bulgaria, when Cyril died. This son, Anguel, was adopted in 2000. Though Anguel was in better physical shape than Cyril, he was later diagnosed with mild spectrum autism. This type of autism often isn’t diagnosed until a child is in school – sometimes several years into school – when higher social and reasoning skills should be developing. Thais Tepper is a Pittsburgh woman who co-founded the Parent Network for the Post-Institutionalized Child and shares the Cases’ skepticism of Eastern European adoption. Tepper’s adopted son is now 14 years old and developmentally disabled. Yet when she went to Romania to adopt him in 1991, she was told she was getting a healthy 18-month-old. What she found was an 18-month-old who weighed only 18 pounds and had no motor skills. Tepper said she later learned that by the definition in use at the time, "a healthy child in Romania is one breathing in and out when you arrive." The best thing adoptive parents today can do for themselves is to be aggressive and never take "no" for an answer in their pursuit of information about a child, Tepper said. "You have to do your homework," she said. "You have to tell them, ‘I want original medical records and I want them translated myself.’ Medical records already translated into English by the agency should be considered suspect." As reasonable as that advice can seem in a calm moment, it can easily be allowed to slip by when overwhelmed by Russian officialdom in the final stages of an adoption, she said. Both Janosy and Teeters said parents need an objective force to guide them through an emotional process. Despite the difficulty of putting protective instincts aside, prospective parents are right to weigh their ability to care for a child with a behavioral problem before making any commitment, Janosy said. "This process is not about saving a child," Janosy said. "This is about building a family. It’s not fair to the child to put expectations on him or her." Just as Irma Pavlis had chosen her son by his resemblance to her husband, Elizabeth Case selected Anguel for his likeness to her own father as a child. Case said she and her husband learned the hard way that even in making as emotional a life choice as adoption, the role of the intellect mustn’t be overlooked. "Don’t believe the hype that God will make it better," she said. "Go with a hard heart, and you’d better be prepared to say no." The root cause Dr. Ira Chasnoff is president of Children’s Research Triangle, a Chicago-based research and clinical program focused on childhood medical issues. He and other experts agree that prospective parents must be ready to deal with issues including fetal alcohol syndrome and emotional problems when considering an Eastern European adoption. But those problems can be overcome, he says. A high rate of alcohol use among pregnant women remains a problem in Eastern Europe, Chasnoff says. Both the syndrome itself and neglect – the kind that would almost certainly be felt by children in an orphanage or similar facility – tend to compound one another in the psychological makeup of children. And when both factors are at work, it’s hard to say which is the more prevalent, he said. "It’s a double whammy on them," Chasnoff said. "There’s no way you can differentiate." Though neither problem is more "curable" than … read more »

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Question:

. I have 3 blastocyst embryos to give away

It is very kind of you to "give them away"….rather than sell them. There is a special place for you reserved …somewhere. May I recommend Nancy Effay?  She might want to take them off your hands…so to speak. deer…the original

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. I have 3 blastocyst embryos to give away It is very kind of you to "give them away"….rather than sell them.

I do believe selling them would be illegal in the UK. Robin

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Hello Old’un! sounds like you are the only person in this or any group that knows anything about adoption.

"Dug" may very well know quite a bit about adoption, particularly in England, but you who have gone to such great lengths to avoid having to adopt are hardly in a position to comment, are you? And I’m sure you derive your judgment of what the rest of us know about adoption from reading this newsgroup for at least a minute or two, considering that you’re trying to unload your skeevy used Russian embryos here. That’s not adoption, Johnson, take it somewhere else. I have 3 blastocyst embryos to give away, and am looking for a UK group, site or board to recruit parents for them on. Any suggestions?

I suggest you piss off. If I don’t find a suitable european outlet shortly, they’ll go to the USA via the NEDC or Snowflake

Nauseating. Let Snotflake call it "adoption" all they want, that doesn’t make it so. Why don’t you go peddle your sanctified blastocysts someplace where they’re wanted, like alt.childbirthright.baybee.wah.wah.wah? whoever cranktified coffeecyst

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Old’un! sounds like you are the only person in this or any group that knows anything about adoption. I have 3 blastocyst embryos to give away, and am looking for a UK group, site or board to recruit parents for them on. Any suggestions? If I don’t find a suitable european outlet shortly, they’ll go to the USA via the NEDC or Snowflake (check out Oh my. Are YOU in the wrong group. — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

Christian popcicles. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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My wife and I have recently decided to try to adopt, as we cannot have children of our own.  We’d prefer to adopt as early as possible as we both want the full range of experience of parenthood and as many of the ‘firsts’ as possible.  We have been doing some searching on-line and at the library and are overwhelmed at the legal and possible financial obstacles. Does anyone with a successful experience have any advice, suggestions or information to help us in our journey adopting a child? Thanks in advance, Matt

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My wife and I have recently decided to try to adopt, as we cannot have children of our own.  We’d prefer to adopt as early as possible as we both want the full range of experience of parenthood and as many of the ‘firsts’ as possible.  We have been doing some searching on-line and at the library and are overwhelmed at the legal and possible financial obstacles. Does anyone with a successful experience have any advice, suggestions or information to help us in our journey adopting a child? Thanks in advance, Matt

This is a discussion group on adoption, and as such, not a support group or a "how-to" group. This isn’t a great ng for a "We want a child" kind of posting, but if you want perspectives from all sides of the relinquishment/adoption experience, it’s interesting. Otherwise, you might want to try adoption.com, which is moderated, I think. Rupa

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Yes.  www.adoption.com is moderated. If Matt P wants to post he needs to log in.  The boards are now over at: http://www.forums.adoption.com Elizabeth Case

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Hi Matt My Wife and I have three "natural" and three adopted children, one of whom is special needs. Our "natural" children fall within the middle of the group. Not sure about "private" adoption agencies but as far as I am aware Social Services will not  offer any financial help once a child is adopted. The "children’s act" is at best open to wide interpretation and you may find some social services can offer  limited financial support whilst others insist there is NO support at all. HOWEVER, last April the children’s act was updated and I am told that the revised wording says something like" if a child is "fostered" and then at a later date adoption becomes a possibility the "child/family" should not suffer ANY financial "embarrassment" or something along those lines if the adoption takes place. We have found that it always pays to "challenge" any "negative" financial decision Social Services arrive at. Hope this helps D

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife and I have recently decided to try to adopt, as we cannot have children of our own.  We’d prefer to adopt as early as possible as we both want the full range of experience of parenthood and as many of the ‘firsts’ as possible.  We have been doing some searching on-line and at the library and are overwhelmed at the legal and possible financial obstacles. Does anyone with a successful experience have any advice, suggestions or information to help us in our journey adopting a child? Thanks in advance, Matt

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Hello Old’un! sounds like you are the only person in this or any group that knows anything about adoption. I have 3 blastocyst embryos to give away, and am looking for a UK group, site or board to recruit parents for them on. Any suggestions? If I don’t find a suitable european outlet shortly, they’ll go to the USA via the NEDC or Snowflake (check out http://www.channel4.com/community/showcards/C/C4_News_-_Embryo_Adopti… National Embryo Donation Center in Knoxville at http://www.embryodonation.org/ Snowflakes Christian Centre, Fullerton CA at http://www.snowflakes.org/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Matt My Wife and I have three "natural" and three adopted children, one of whom is special needs. Our "natural" children fall within the middle of the group.

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Hello Old’un! sounds like you are the only person in this or any group that knows anything about adoption. I have 3 blastocyst embryos to give away, and am looking for a UK group, site or board to recruit parents for them on. Any suggestions? If I don’t find a suitable european outlet shortly, they’ll go to the USA via the NEDC or Snowflake (check out

Oh my. Are YOU in the wrong group. — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

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Question:

<<<For such upstanding citizens, I was curious as to your rules infraction ,that’s all. Hey, everybody makes a few mistakes now and then…just look at the Arlington Town Meeting.  That was a big bunch of mistakes all put together. <<<Why in the world are you putting this on the ballot if it’s passed. It’s not passed yet, and the bill’s major sponsor said to put even more pressure on until it’s signed.  We’re also still going to put it on the ballot because this version includes EMT’s.

You’re going to the ballot simply to add a site designation? Boy, talk about too little to do with too much change jingling in your pockets. If we get the opportunity we’re going to kick off the PR campaign in Arlington and Lexington.  Can’t think of a better place. BTW, what’s Adam going to do when his home state passes.

He’ll still have a job, which is more than I can say for you. Without the Safe Haven issue to pimp, you go back to being nothings. Hang onto those press clippings, they prove you existed. Ron Go around the last 4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – states crowing about Gov Lingle and the Arlington TM? Do you think that’s going to be a real convincing argument for them to not pass? ~ Jean

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Marley; I do not have the time to write a book but feel free to add me to the list of disgruntled abandonees/adoptees. Have a good Monday.  For the record I am not at all angry as I cannot believe that anyone involved is trying to be hurtful in any way. I really do want to believe that. I am merely sad and just a bit frustrated. Good night. Raymond

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writes: Thanks for getting back to me.  Has anyone documented the results in those states that have this law already? Has it been demonstrated that the rate of infanticide has decreased in these states at all? How do the states handle the issue of obaining permission from the parents before placing the child up for adoption? Thanks again Raymond

It’s unfrotunate you weren’t there to ask these questions as the Safe Haven laws rolled through the various legislatures, Raymond. J. Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley: Thanks for the data.  From the sound of it we seem to have folks who feel they are doing a good thing (or are the sound bites the real motive? I hope not) but are working from a very shaky base.  I wonder if anyone has checked with any adults who were abandoned as infants.Probably not as it seems that all adoption laws are meant to "protect" (hide?) the birthparents while at the same time denying the child, who has no say, his or her most basic rights. I guess I would feel somewhat less cynical if I could see some sort of valid data showing how this set of policies benefits the children which, (am I missing something?) are suppossed to be the focus of all of this.I hope your 4th is going well. Raymond

Well, adoptees have been shut out of the discouse.  We who objcect to SH are simply ungrateful or disturbed.  Sally Howard, who was abandoned at birth and has written a book, Finding Me in a Paper Bag, has been pretty vocal. There have also been individual quotes in the press from aduls who were abandoned as infants and are opposed.  Of course, what would they know? What is so bothersome is that many well-intentioned people refuse to take seriously what NCFA has to say about the agenda.  We live in an age of denial, Raymond. The 4th is fine so far . Cleaning house. Marley

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The Morrisseys escaped from the primal ooze riding an abandoned baby, and now that the issue is settled they hear intimations of obscurity calling them home. They want to remain among the bipeds, and they’ll peddle their asses to whomever will give them a forum. Ron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No wonder your ally Kathy Teahan is flip-flopping so many times, she’s got a 70 year old Grandmom on her tail, with a certified ballot question to hit her with. ~ Jean MASSACHUSETTS http://www.enterprisenews.com/articles/2004/07/02/news/news/news10.txt Whitman resident pushes vote on safe haven issue n Safe haven laws allow parents to leave an infant at a designated safe place, such as a hospital or police station, without fear of criminal prosecution. By Debbie Seele ENTERPRISE CORRESPONDENT WHITMAN

Question:

Yet how come families have such a difficult time in TN with ICPC? Interstate Compact on Placement of Children.  These placements are NOTORIOUSLY SLOW.  Even when blood kin are involved. Suffer the little children when DCS, DCF, DHS, ACS involved. NG alt support child protective services. Wex found: >"Most of them are from out of state. I think two or three are from >Tennessee," said. "We don’t know where they went. We don’t know where >they came from."

Wex sent in: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Subject: Police unravel foster parent abuse case >From: wexwimpy wexwi…@citicom.com >Date: 7/1/2004 1:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time >Message-id: <lsg8e0ptn86e610tu6jpk7fbfasii49…@4ax.com> >Police unravel foster parent abuse case >TRENTON, Tenn. (AP)

Question:

You bring no value to the adoption process, other than that of a baby broker. And for this you charge $7500 and up? My clients and birthmoms who have successfuly adopted and placed their babies for adoption, would disagree with you. I got three referrals this month from friends of people who have adopted from me and were delighted with the service. I spent four hours on the phone last week with a birthmom who went into labor, she called me at 2am my time, hung up with her at six, my kids get up at 6:30 for school, and I was on the phone the next 12 hours with the couple, attornies, hospital, birthmom and Dr. Yeah, I am a regular Princess Grace. No service at all, yes sireeeeeeeeeee.

Of course there are people out there who think you scammed them. Sure do seem to be a few of ‘em judging by what pops up under your name in Google. Your "clients": those are rich, childless, Republican couples, right? Guess they don’t know you the way we do. Wotta shame. Well very few get rich in this business, including me, I don’t make a lot of profit in adoption. I just had a baby born last October and that couple had four fall throughs and I worked with them three and a half years, then my fee was $5900.00, add in the monthly ads which cost a fortune and the overhead and I lost a ton of money on that adoption.  But I told them I wouldn’t give up on them and I didn’t, they named the baby Hope Patience, guess why?

So not only are you a baby broker, you’re not a very smart one. Well I am a single Mom with two kids, and we like to eat too, by the way, I paid $325K for my house, kept it for five years, and sold it for $650K, I put all that money into an old house, not on the water, not on LBK, just a working class neighborhood.

You also managed to stick someone else with your tax and consumer liens. That must have helped the bottom line too. steve

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I am not Marcy and I do not work in the field of adoption. However, I know the answers to these questions. Adoptive parents know up front, if they have read even one book about adoption and are working with experienced adoption professionals, that there are no guarantees in adoption. While some agencies/attorneys generously offer to "comp" many future services should an adoption plan dissolve after expenses are paid, most will not. Why?  Because whether pbirthparents complete an adoption plan or cancel it, the expenses for the adoption professionals are largely the same. When adoption plans are canceled, adoption professionals have no recourse for recovery of monies spent.

That’s true for adoption agencies, adoption lawyers, and other ethical folks in adoption. For facilitators like Marcy, for some inexplicable reason the phrase "take the money and run" comes to mind. I note this for entertainment purposes only, of course  :-) steve

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  < snip Foster care adoption of older neglected or abused children in the confines of the state is not the same as private independent adoption or agency adoption, your agency is being backed by the state, I am not, neither are the attornies or agencies that do private adoptions.  I know for a fact that my agency receives less than half of your normal "fee" from the state for placing children out of foster care. Right, and they get that fee for every child, I have few birthhmoms that actually place out of all of the birthmoms that contact me, some I work with for months and they change their mind, some couples might go through three or four situations before a successful placement. I don’t get paid a dime for that work. One attorney I work with fielded at least 30 calls about state adoption laws from interested couples in an available situation and the birthmom changed her mind at the end. That is the way it goes. She worked for free, so did I. they perform accredited homestudies, background checks, conduct a mandatory 12 week/36 hour parenting class specifically for parenting special needs children, *and* actively search to locate kids in the system to match up with their families. They also provide a host of post adoption support services for their clients.  You bring no value to the adoption process, other than that of a baby broker. And for this you charge $7500 and up? My clients and birthmoms who have successfuly adopted and placed their babies for adoption, would disagree with you. I got three referrals this month from friends of people who have adopted from me and were delighted with the service. I spent four hours on the phone last week with a birthmom who went into labor, she called me at 2am my time, hung up with her at six, my kids get up at 6:30 for school, and I was on the phone the next 12 hours with the couple, attornies, hospital, birthmom and Dr. Yeah, I am a regular Princess Grace. No service at all, yes sireeeeeeeeeee. Wish I had some pearls although they’re not my favorite. I rarely spend time lanquishing drinking margeuritas, most of my days are working, and my calls don’t stop on weekends, vacations or holidays. By the way Dad, I don’t exploit the birthmoms who are in crises, I help them place their children, if they want, in the home that they select.  For fees that start at $7500 and up.  How benevolent of you. Well very few get rich in this business, including me, I don’t make a lot of profit in adoption. I just had a baby born last October and that couple had four fall throughs and I worked with them three and a half years, then my fee was $5900.00, add in the monthly ads which cost a fortune and the overhead and I lost a ton of money on that adoption.  But I told them I wouldn’t give up on them and I didn’t, they named the baby Hope Patience, guess why? That’s about as dumb as saying you exploit the state making money off of neglected and abused kids and so does the agency you used.  I’m a Pennsylvania taxpayer’s wet dream.  We receive no subsidies from the state whatsoever. Seriously, I am sorry to hear that, the state should subsidise

ouch, sorry, subsidize

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation   Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad

I am thinking you would have to be in a reclining position, on a no doubt lavishly expensive sofa, in her private orifice, oops I meant office :-0 M

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad I am thinking you would have to be in a reclining position, on a no doubt lavishly expensive sofa, in her private orifice, oops I meant office :-0 M

Sure, Rosie and Jeannette got a shot at him, why not you?  ;-) A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  < snip Foster care adoption of older neglected or abused children in the confines of the state is not the same as private independent adoption or agency adoption, your agency is being backed by the state, I am not, neither are the attornies or agencies that do private adoptions.  I know for a fact that my agency receives less than half of your normal "fee" from the state for placing children out of foster care.

Right, and they get that fee for every child, I have few birthhmoms that actually place out of all of the birthmoms that contact me, some I work with for months and they change their mind, some couples might go through three or four situations before a successful placement. I don’t get paid a dime for that work. One attorney I work with fielded at least 30 calls about state adoption laws from interested couples in an available situation and the birthmom changed her mind at the end. That is the way it goes. She worked for free, so did I. they perform accredited homestudies, background checks, conduct a mandatory 12 week/36 hour parenting class specifically for parenting special needs children, *and* actively search to locate kids in the system to match up with their families. They also provide a host of post adoption support services for their clients.  You bring no value to the adoption process, other than that of a baby broker. And for this you charge $7500 and up?

My clients and birthmoms who have successfuly adopted and placed their babies for adoption, would disagree with you. I got three referrals this month from friends of people who have adopted from me and were delighted with the service. I spent four hours on the phone last week with a birthmom who went into labor, she called me at 2am my time, hung up with her at six, my kids get up at 6:30 for school, and I was on the phone the next 12 hours with the couple, attornies, hospital, birthmom and Dr. Yeah, I am a regular Princess Grace. No service at all, yes sireeeeeeeeeee. Wish I had some pearls although they’re not my favorite. I rarely spend time lanquishing drinking margeuritas, most of my days are working, and my calls don’t stop on weekends, vacations or holidays. By the way Dad, I don’t exploit the birthmoms who are in crises, I help them place their children, if they want, in the home that they select.  For fees that start at $7500 and up.  How benevolent of you.

Well very few get rich in this business, including me, I don’t make a lot of profit in adoption. I just had a baby born last October and that couple had four fall throughs and I worked with them three and a half years, then my fee was $5900.00, add in the monthly ads which cost a fortune and the overhead and I lost a ton of money on that adoption.  But I told them I wouldn’t give up on them and I didn’t, they named the baby Hope Patience, guess why? That’s about as dumb as saying you exploit the state making money off of neglected and abused kids and so does the agency you used.  I’m a Pennsylvania taxpayer’s wet dream.  We receive no subsidies from the state whatsoever.

Seriously, I am sorry to hear that, the state should subsidise you, older foster children usually need a lot of outside services, that are very expensive and are no fault of yours, counseling, special ed, medical, etc.  The caseworkers at our agency need to eat, pay their (ahem) bills, and put food on the table.  No one expects them to work for free,

Well I am a single Mom with two kids, and we like to eat too, by the way, I paid $325K for my house, kept it for five years, and sold it for $650K, I put all that money into an old house, not on the water, not on LBK, just a working class neighborhood. I now have a very small mortgage, my kids are college bound in a few years. None of the money in my old house was from adoptions, it was from working as a Director of Nursing and CEO of hospitals for years. I am not young. I am actually taking a second career now to supplement the adoption income, which is small. At this time I may retire in 35 years, I am 54 now.   but they ain’t getting rich, either.

I hang with a woman who owns an agency here, she is rich, and makes a lot of money, her adoptions are $25K and up, sorry to burst your bubble. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I can name many families who are trash and are known to support their lazy asses off of subsidies from foster care kids. One white trash couple ( neither worked) tried to get another AA baby so they could make another $450 a month in a Southern state. They already had 8 kids and were trying to get more, another facilitator and I shut them down.  They showed up at a hospital for an AA baby thire kids were filthy, you have no idea how much that goes on.  I’m sure that goes on, and we need more families who are willing to adopt older kids so we can weed out that kind of trash.  If you shut them down, good for you. So don’t be ridiculous, there is more abuse in foster care than there ever was in adoption.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.  How does this absolve you?

I sleep great at night, just found out that one lady who adopted from me just adopted her childs sibling, didn’t go through me, I got no fee, I just referred the birthmom back to her to keep the girls together. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Didn’t you just read the article posted here about the foster care abuse in California, $30,000 to $50,000 per year per kid?  Missed it. Dad

Response:

  < snip Foster care adoption of older neglected or abused children in the confines of the state is not the same as private independent adoption or agency adoption, your agency is being backed by the state, I am not, neither are the attornies or agencies that do private adoptions.

  I know for a fact that my agency receives less than half of your normal "fee" from the state for placing children out of foster care.  Out of those funds they perform accredited homestudies, background checks, conduct a mandatory 12 week/36 hour parenting class specifically for parenting special needs children, *and* actively search to locate kids in the system to match up with their families. They also provide a host of post adoption support services for their clients.   You bring no value to the adoption process, other than that of a baby broker.  And for this you charge $7500 and up?   Wish I had some pearls although they’re not my favorite. I rarely spend time lanquishing drinking margeuritas, most of my days are working, and my calls don’t stop on weekends, vacations or holidays. By the way Dad, I don’t exploit the birthmoms who are in crises, I help them place their children, if they want, in the home that they select.

  For fees that start at $7500 and up.  How benevolent of you. That’s about as dumb as saying you exploit the state making money off of neglected and abused kids and so does the agency you used.

  I’m a Pennsylvania taxpayer’s wet dream.  We receive no subsidies from the state whatsoever.  The caseworkers at our agency need to eat, pay their (ahem) bills, and put food on the table.  No one expects them to work for free, but they ain’t getting rich, either. I can name many families who are trash and are known to support their lazy asses off of subsidies from foster care kids. One white trash couple ( neither worked) tried to get another AA baby so they could make another $450 a month in a Southern state. They already had 8 kids and were trying to get more, another facilitator and I shut them down.  They showed up at a hospital for an AA baby thire kids were filthy, you have no idea how much that goes on.

  I’m sure that goes on, and we need more families who are willing to adopt older kids so we can weed out that kind of trash.  If you shut them down, good for you. So don’t be ridiculous, there is more abuse in foster care than there ever was in adoption.

  Two wrongs don’t make a right.  How does this absolve you? Didn’t you just read the article posted here about the foster care abuse in California, $30,000 to $50,000 per year per kid?

  Missed it. Dad

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation   Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad I am thinking you would have to be in a reclining position, on a no doubt lavishly expensive sofa, in her private orifice, oops I meant office :-0 M

Response:

  < snip  Our agency referred us to an adoption attorney.  Our legal fees and court costs were approx $550 for both our adoptions (‘95 and ‘98).  No ICPC needed. Great, most attorneys are charging $2500 to $3500 nationwide, some AAAA attorneys are now charging $7000 from the birthmoms state.

  Our attorney met with us for about an hour, made sure the appropriate paperwork was in order, and represented us at the court proceedings.  $7000 seems outrageous, but perhaps infant adoption requires a different level of legal representation.   How much was your agency fee,

  We enlisted a highly reputable private non-profit agency who specialized in the placement of foster care children.  We paid no fees.  Our agency operates on the funds they recieve from the state per successful placement, in addition to private donations.   By the way, the director of our agency isn’t sipping Margaritas in the office of her 800K seaside property she purchased by exploiting poor birthmothers in crisis.  Look in the mirror, Marcy.  You have a lot in common with those rich, white, Republican CEOs who make their fortunes off the backs of the poor and disadvantaged. how old were your children at the time of placement,

  Both were five years old when they were placed in our home. any special needs?

  Yes.  They needed a family, a safe place to call home, and some time to heal. How much does that cost? My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now.  Whatever.  I didn’t ask you for a price comparison, I asked you what services adoptive parents recieve in exchange for your fees.  I mean, do you perform their homestudy?  Do you provide adoptive parent classes? Do your fees go towards misc birthmom expenses?  What other costs go into your fee schedule? Birthmom expenses are usually nonexistant since I don’t usually work with birthmom’s who need them, if they do, I normally decline, unless they are minimal.  Counseling, classes and homestudies are paid  by the adoptive couple right to the agencies. Most of my fee is for advertising expenses.

  Evidently, there’s enough left over to keep you in pearls. Dad

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  < snip  Our agency referred us to an adoption attorney.  Our legal fees and court costs were approx $550 for both our adoptions (‘95 and ‘98).  No ICPC needed. Great, most attorneys are charging $2500 to $3500 nationwide, some AAAA attorneys are now charging $7000 from the birthmoms state.  Our attorney met with us for about an hour, made sure the appropriate paperwork was in order, and represented us at the court proceedings.  $7000 seems outrageous, but perhaps infant adoption requires a different level of legal representation.   How much was your agency fee,  We enlisted a highly reputable private non-profit agency who specialized in the placement of foster care children.  We paid no fees.  Our agency operates on the funds they recieve from the state per successful placement, in addition to private donations.  By the way, the director of our agency isn’t sipping Margaritas in the office of her 800K seaside property she purchased by exploiting poor birthmothers in crisis.  Look in the mirror, Marcy.  You have a lot in common with those rich, white, Republican CEOs who make their fortunes off the backs of the poor and disadvantaged. how old were your children at the time of placement,  Both were five years old when they were placed in our home. any special needs?  Yes.  They needed a family, a safe place to call home, and some time to heal. How much does that cost? My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now.  Whatever.  I didn’t ask you for a price comparison, I asked you what services adoptive parents recieve in exchange for your fees.  I mean, do you perform their homestudy?  Do you provide adoptive parent classes? Do your fees go towards misc birthmom expenses?  What other costs go into your fee schedule? Birthmom expenses are usually nonexistant since I don’t usually work with birthmom’s who need them, if they do, I normally decline, unless they are minimal.  Counseling, classes and homestudies are paid  by the adoptive couple right to the agencies. Most of my fee is for advertising expenses.  Evidently, there’s enough left over to keep you in pearls. Dad

Foster care adoption of older neglected or abused children in the confines of the state is not the same as private independent adoption or agency adoption, your agency is being backed by the state, I am not, neither are the attornies or agencies that do private adoptions. Wish I had some pearls although they’re not my favorite. I rarely spend time lanquishing drinking margeuritas, most of my days are working, and my calls don’t stop on weekends, vacations or holidays. By the way Dad, I don’t exploit the birthmoms who are in crises, I help them place their children, if they want, in the home that they select.  That’s about as dumb as saying you exploit the state making money off of neglected and abused kids and so does the agency you used. I can name many families who are trash and are known to support their lazy asses off of subsidies from foster care kids. One white trash couple ( neither worked) tried to get another AA baby so they could make another $450 a month in a Southern state. They already had 8 kids and were trying to get more, another facilitator and I shut them down.  They showed up at a hospital for an AA baby thire kids were filthy, you have no idea how much that goes on. So don’t be ridiculous, there is more abuse in foster care than there ever was in adoption. Didn’t you just read the article posted here about the foster care abuse in California, $30,000 to $50,000 per year per kid?

Response:

Marcy what happens if a woman decides she does not want to relinquish? What happens to all that money paid out? Jackie

I am not Marcy and I do not work in the field of adoption. However, I know the answers to these questions. Adoptive parents know up front, if they have read even one book about adoption and are working with experienced adoption professionals, that there are no guarantees in adoption. While some agencies/attorneys generously offer to "comp" many future services should an adoption plan dissolve after expenses are paid, most will not. Why?  Because whether pbirthparents complete an adoption plan or cancel it, the expenses for the adoption professionals are largely the same. When adoption plans are canceled, adoption professionals have no recourse for recovery of monies spent. P2P

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should really stop talking about yourself this way. You and Steve are so funny, you should go on Dumb and

I resent exactly one half of that suggestion. pb…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Re: Such A Piece Of S..T You should really stop talking about yourself this way. You and Steve are so funny, you should go on Dumb and I resent exactly one half of that suggestion. pb…

Which half?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Such A Piece Of S..T You should really stop talking about yourself this way. You and Steve are so funny, you should go on Dumb and I resent exactly one half of that suggestion. pb… Which half?

You don’t know?

Response:

Wave Your Flag On This Steve

Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh? steve —  –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?

  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html Dad

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation  Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad Yeah, that’s me. Those are not my fees in total Dad, they include all legal fees in birthmom state, ICPC, court costs, etc. My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now. Hey, there is a list of judgements, some where I was a defendant and plaintiff, most over a period of 12 years old from a business that closed during a divorce and a payroll lien that rolled over every quarter for years. But thanks for muckracking old news. Always glad to see you’re fairness and impartiality. Marcy what happens if a woman decides she does not want to relinquish? What happens to all that money paid out? Jackie

My fee goes towards another adoption, most facilitators and agencies do the same, some don’t. The legal fees used to date are kept by the attornies and are non-refundable based upon the retainer agreement and how much time was used, most attornies bill on an hourly rate, and will refund the difference. Living expenses and counseling expenses are at risk to the adoptive parents, and are understood contractually that they are non-fundable. All of this is made very clear to the adoptive parents when they sign the contracts, and most agencies, attornies, and facilitators follow the same guidelines.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation  Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad Yeah, that’s me. Those are not my fees in total Dad, they include all legal fees in birthmom state, ICPC, court costs, etc. My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now. Hey, there is a list of judgements, some where I was a defendant and plaintiff, most over a period of 12 years old from a business that closed during a divorce and a payroll lien that rolled over every quarter for years. But thanks for muckracking old news. Always glad to see you’re fairness and impartiality.

Marcy what happens if a woman decides she does not want to relinquish? What happens to all that money paid out? Jackie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ubject: Re: Such A Piece Of S..T Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation  Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad Yeah, that’s me. Those are not my fees in total Dad, they include all legal fees in birthmom state, ICPC, court costs, etc.  Our agency referred us to an adoption attorney.  Our legal fees and court costs were approx $550 for both our adoptions (‘95 and ‘98).  No ICPC needed.

Great, most attorneys are charging $2500 to $3500 nationwide, some AAAA attorneys are now charging $7000 from the birthmoms state. How much was your agency fee, how old were your children at the time of placement, any special needs? How much does that cost? My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now.  Whatever.  I didn’t ask you for a price comparison, I asked you what services adoptive parents recieve in exchange for your fees.  I mean, do you perform their homestudy?  Do you provide adoptive parent classes?  Do your fees go towards misc birthmom expenses?  What other costs go into your fee schedule?

Birthmom expenses are usually nonexistant since I don’t usually work with birthmom’s who need them, if they do, I normally decline, unless they are minimal.  Counseling, classes and homestudies are paid  by the adoptive couple right to the agencies. Most of my fee is for advertising expenses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey, there is a list of judgements, some where I was a defendant and plaintiff, most over a period of 12 years old from a business that closed during a divorce and a payroll lien that rolled over every quarter for years. But thanks for muckracking old news.  My pleasure. Always glad to see you’re fairness and impartiality.  I should be on Fox News. Dad

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ubject: Re: Such A Piece Of S..T Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information.

She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen

Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad Yeah, that’s me. Those are not my fees in total Dad, they include all legal fees in birthmom state, ICPC, court costs, etc.

  Our agency referred us to an adoption attorney.  Our legal fees and court costs were approx $550 for both our adoptions (‘95 and ‘98).  No ICPC needed. How much does that cost? My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now.

  Whatever.  I didn’t ask you for a price comparison, I asked you what services adoptive parents recieve in exchange for your fees.  I mean, do you perform their homestudy?  Do you provide adoptive parent classes?  Do your fees go towards misc birthmom expenses?  What other costs go into your fee schedule?   Hey, there is a list of judgements, some where I was a defendant and plaintiff, most over a period of 12 years old from a business that closed during a divorce and a payroll lien that rolled over every quarter for years. But thanks for muckracking old news.

  My pleasure. Always glad to see you’re fairness and impartiality.

  I should be on Fox News. Dad

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ubject: Re: Such A Piece Of S..T Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation  Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad

Yeah, that’s me. Those are not my fees in total Dad, they include all legal fees in birthmom state, ICPC, court costs, etc. My fee is $7500, lower mid range for agencies and facilitators. Most are charging from $12,000 to $25,000 now. Hey, there is a list of judgements, some where I was a defendant and plaintiff, most over a period of 12 years old from a business that closed during a divorce and a payroll lien that rolled over every quarter for years. But thanks for muckracking old news. Always glad to see you’re fairness and impartiality. Weather, 74, sunset, just stunning over the gulf, I am watching it from my office.  Wish you were here. I will have a Kalik in your name.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wave Your Flag On This Steve Sure. By the way, I love how you included the copyright notice of the article, including the part prohibiting reproduction. Following the rules never has seemed to be your strong suit, eh?  http://www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/chosenchild.html

http://www.abcadoptions.com/guestlog.htm 64.12.96.235 February 04, 2004 An African American baby girl is due April 4th, in Mississippi, she was matched with a wonderful couple who found out that their state will not let them adopt again for another year. She also had another couple fall through who were gay and her mother declined. She has called me everyday to see if I have a match. She has had all of her prenatal, no drugs or alcohol, and she is open to a traditional couple only. Please call 941-745-3865 for more information. She is disappointed that her matches fell through and she is anxious for a firm situation. Fees will be about $10,500, not including finalization in your state. Thanks, The Chosen Child, Inc. An Alabama Corporation   Hey Marcy, is this you?  And if so, what "services" do you provide in exchange for your $10,000+ fee? Dad

Response:

You should really stop talking about yourself this way. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should really stop talking about yourself this way. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

You and Steve are so funny, you should go on Dumb and

Response:

Wave Your Flag On This Steve President Touts Tax Cuts; Kerry Raps ‘Failed Economic Policies’ By SCOTT LINDLAW, AP   President Buh hugs employees at the Nu-Air Manufacturing Corporation in Tampa. TAMPA, Fla. (Feb. 16) – President Bush, brushing aside concerns about the unprecedented budget deficit, renewed his demand that Congress extend his tax cuts, and charged Monday that Democrats would hike taxes. Sen. John Kerry, the front-running Democratic presidential candidate, said he agreed with Bush on keeping in place two tax cuts mentioned by Bush. But Kerry said Bush’s overall economic policies had failed to create jobs. ”President Bush’s failed economic policies have resulted in the loss of 3 million jobs and the biggest surpluses in history turned into the biggest deficits,” Kerry said. The duel between Bush and Kerry foreshadowed a major issue in this year’s presidential campaign, with Bush trying to cast Democrats as tax-hikers and the Democrats saying Bush’s tax cuts favored the rich. The exchange exposed a fundamental policy difference: Bush wants all his tax cuts made permanent, while Kerry would halt tax reductions for Americans who earn more than $200,000. The tax bills that Bush signed in 2001 and 2003 contain expiration dates next year on some provisions.  The child tax credit would drop from $1,000 per child to $700, and some married couples would have to pay more than they would as two single individuals. Uh, how does that help us? ”You hear people in Washington saying, ‘Oh, let’s not make the tax cuts permanent.’ When you hear somebody say that, they’re saying ‘We’re gonna tax you. We’re gonna raise your taxes,”’ the president said. Kerry – like Bush – favors making permanent the child tax credit, and permanently ending the ”marriage penalty,” campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said. Bush spoke at a window factory, the latest such plant he has chosen to showcase what he says are the favorable impacts of his tax policies on small business. His makeshift stage was near the production floor, and he was flanked by small business owners and an employee. The White House bills these events as ”conversations on the economy,” but there is never disagreement, only positive reinforcement of Bush’s message. Each of Bush’s ”conversation” partners Monday gave testimonials about the positive effect of his tax cuts. ”Mr. President, we have to keep this tax cut,” said Sam Leto, chairman of Tampa Brass & Aluminum Corp. Bush’s tour of the factory floor was also highly stage-managed by the White House. As he entered, a half-dozen workers were steadily polishing windows, as if Bush had walked into an ordinary shift on President’s Day. News cameras snapped away as Bush picked up a caulking gun and hugged workers. Yeah, in six months they will get pink slips, their jobs went to Mexico Five minutes after Bush and his entourage of journalists left, the factory floor was deserted, and there was no sign later in the day that production had resumed. This is great, typical BUSHIT It was Bush’s 19th visit to Florida, the state that decided the 2000 election, and Bush invited a symbol of that year’s Florida recount to the event: Katherine Harris, AHHH, Katherine, a true Patriot, she overthrew a Presidential election for her country then the Florida secretary of state, now a member of Congress from Florida. The White House projects the deficit will hit $521 billion this year, the highest dollar figure ever. Bush has promised to cut it in half over five years, and he urged his listeners here to concern themselves with individuals’ disposable incomes, not the federal treasury. ”Listen, we got the money in government. You don’t have to worry about that,” Oh, OK, I thought I should worry about the deficit? Guess not, I feel better now. Bush said. ”But (it’s) the fact that there’s more money in your pocket that made this economy strong. That’s where we need to keep it.” While Bush reported ”an optimism in our country that is undeniable,” What polls are he reading? Oh, that’s right, he doesn’t read. j  Democrats pointed out that more than 8 million Americans are out of work. ”Every day, President Bush travels the country telling hard working Americans that there is an economic turnaround, but they see no sign of it in their lives, their jobs or their paychecks,” said Kerry. ”This country cannot afford one more day of President Bush’s misguided and irresponsible leadership.” Kerry and one-time rival Rep. Dick Gephardt began a four-day ”jobs tour” of the country to underscore the Democratic front-runner’s differences with Bush on the economy. The Kerry campaign arranged a conference call Monday morning that linked up reporters with Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla. The former presidential candidate sidestepped questions about whether he was formally endorsing Kerry. Graham blamed the administration for favoring the wealthy in tax cuts, for proposing rules that could deprive millions of workers of overtime and for an economic adviser’s support of U.S. jobs going overseas. Bush ”might get a different picture” by speaking with unemployed Americans, Graham said. ”The president seems to go into a community, pick a facility where he knows he’ll get a good response, announce victory and then go home,” Graham said. AP-NY-02-16-04 2129EST Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not true in all cases, but in many cases: It was their choice. They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice. What if the preggo likes women? In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy. And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby later. Greedy or breedy?  I like that.  Personally I’l take greed over breed anyday. And some cases are even worse. Some mothers had abortions because the timing of their pregnancy didn’t fit well with their career plan. Now, a girl who knows better than to do anything so wicked is being asked to deliver her precious baby into the hands of a "childless" baby-killer. Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money. And what if they don’t care?   Abortion  rocks. Some couples got rich by delaying children. They could have had a new baby and made do with an older car, but they had to have a brand-new car, their favorite color. Now they want a brand-new child, their favorite color. Let them make do with an older child. What’s wrong with a new and no crotchfruit? Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy, emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude. A loving family of three is formed, and the story has a happy ending. Channel Marvin Olasky much? There are single men seeking to adopt a baby, wanting to snatch a newborn from a poor, 18-year-old birthmom. Let him have the baby AND the birthmom so mother and child can stay together. If the birthmom meets a guy through a website, for all she knows, he could be a dangerous criminal. Gee, do adoption agencies have any way of checking somebody out? Hmmmm… Aren’t all men dangerous criminals? Not if they’re husbands. Once a pregnant girl marries, the husband magically transforms into a stable, loving partner. Ron How could I forget that.  Children make people responsible. Marley

Unfortunately, when children are killed it is often by the stepfather. We have just had a very sad case in New Zealand. Many men will raise and love another man’s child, but what happens when the couple have a big fight and the man brings up the question of the woman’s pregnancy? Especially bad if the child is listening. Geopelia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley Hapiness is a warm gun

Response:

They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice.

—–Or maybe they did and just didn’t find anyone they fell in love with. In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy. And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby later.

——You call it greedy, others call it responsible. What’s worse, the 19 year old who gets married, has  three kids, only to have daddy take off for parts unknown, leaving you with the bill (in the form of welfare)? Or the woman who decided to make herself employable and finacially able to care for herself and her children before she began producing them? Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy, emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude.<<

——-Do you think it’s wise to make a decision of such magintude based on a desparate desire for a daddy? Do you think that marriage is likely to succeed?  A loving family of three is formed, and the story has a happy ending.

——- Desparate situations rarely produce loving families or happy endings.

Response:

Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money. And where they stand on zoning laws! Don’t forget that vital issue. Hey Tom — suck my dick. But take the tinfoil hat off first. It tickles. whoever zoned for coffee

*LOL* (accompanied by splurted chardonnay…) Julia When are they going to make washable keyboards?

Response:

Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money. And where they stand on zoning laws! Don’t forget that vital issue. Hey Tom — suck my dick. But take the tinfoil hat off first. It tickles.

LOL – don’t DO that! My guffaw has made the bloody dog start twirling around chasing her tail! <BG Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – whoever zoned for coffee

Response:

Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money.

And where they stand on zoning laws! Don’t forget that vital issue. Hey Tom — suck my dick. But take the tinfoil hat off first. It tickles. whoever zoned for coffee

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not true in all cases, but in many cases: It was their choice. They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice. What if the preggo likes women? In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy. And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby later. Greedy or breedy?  I like that.  Personally I’l take greed over breed anyday. And some cases are even worse. Some mothers had abortions because the timing of their pregnancy didn’t fit well with their career plan. Now, a girl who knows better than to do anything so wicked is being asked to deliver her precious baby into the hands of a "childless" baby-killer. Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money. And what if they don’t care?   Abortion  rocks. Some couples got rich by delaying children. They could have had a new baby and made do with an older car, but they had to have a brand-new car, their favorite color. Now they want a brand-new child, their favorite color. Let them make do with an older child. What’s wrong with a new and no crotchfruit? Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy, emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude. A loving family of three is formed, and the story has a happy ending. Channel Marvin Olasky much? There are single men seeking to adopt a baby, wanting to snatch a newborn from a poor, 18-year-old birthmom. Let him have the baby AND the birthmom so mother and child can stay together. If the birthmom meets a guy through a website, for all she knows, he could be a dangerous criminal. Gee, do adoption agencies have any way of checking somebody out? Hmmmm… Aren’t all men dangerous criminals? Not if they’re husbands. Once a pregnant girl marries, the husband magically transforms into a stable, loving partner. Ron

How could I forget that.  Children make people responsible. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley Hapiness is a warm gun

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not true in all cases, but in many cases: It was their choice. They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen  MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex  with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice. What if the preggo likes women? In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having  children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy.  And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps  they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby later. Greedy or breedy?  I like that.  Personally I’l take greed over breed anyday. And some cases are even worse. Some mothers had abortions because the  timing of their pregnancy didn’t fit well with their career plan. Now, a girl who  knows better than to do anything so wicked is being asked to deliver her  precious baby into the hands of a "childless" baby-killer. Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to  find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to  make money. And what if they don’t care?   Abortion  rocks. Some couples got rich by delaying children. They could have had a new baby  and made do with an older car, but they had to have a brand-new car, their  favorite color. Now they want a brand-new child, their favorite color. Let them  make do with an older child. What’s wrong with a new and no crotchfruit? Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy,  emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant  girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude. A loving family of three is formed,  and the story has a happy ending. Channel Marvin Olasky much? There are single men seeking to adopt a baby, wanting to snatch a newborn  from a poor, 18-year-old birthmom. Let him have the baby AND the birthmom so  mother and child can stay together. If the birthmom meets a guy through a website, for all she knows, he could  be a dangerous criminal. Gee, do adoption agencies have any way of checking  somebody out? Hmmmm… Aren’t all men dangerous criminals? Marley Hapiness is a warm gun

Blackbird singing in the dead of night… Takes me back….. Di

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not true in all cases, but in many cases: It was their choice. They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice. What if the preggo likes women? In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy. And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby later. Greedy or breedy?  I like that.  Personally I’l take greed over breed anyday. And some cases are even worse. Some mothers had abortions because the timing of their pregnancy didn’t fit well with their career plan. Now, a girl who knows better than to do anything so wicked is being asked to deliver her precious baby into the hands of a "childless" baby-killer. Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money. And what if they don’t care?   Abortion  rocks. Some couples got rich by delaying children. They could have had a new baby and made do with an older car, but they had to have a brand-new car, their favorite color. Now they want a brand-new child, their favorite color. Let them make do with an older child. What’s wrong with a new and no crotchfruit? Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy, emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude. A loving family of three is formed, and the story has a happy ending. Channel Marvin Olasky much? There are single men seeking to adopt a baby, wanting to snatch a newborn from a poor, 18-year-old birthmom. Let him have the baby AND the birthmom so mother and child can stay together. If the birthmom meets a guy through a website, for all she knows, he could be a dangerous criminal. Gee, do adoption agencies have any way of checking somebody out? Hmmmm… Aren’t all men dangerous criminals?

Not if they’re husbands. Once a pregnant girl marries, the husband magically transforms into a stable, loving partner. Ron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marley Hapiness is a warm gun

Response:

Not true in all cases, but in many cases: It was their choice.   They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice. In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy. And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby later. And some cases are even worse. Some mothers had abortions because the timing of their pregnancy didn’t fit well with their career plan. Now, a girl who knows better than to do anything so wicked is being asked to deliver her precious baby into the hands of a "childless" baby-killer. Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money. Some couples got rich by delaying children. They could have had a new baby and made do with an older car, but they had to have a brand-new car, their favorite color. Now they want a brand-new child, their favorite color. Let them make do with an older child. Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy, emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude. A loving family of three is formed, and the story has a happy ending. There are single men seeking to adopt a baby, wanting to snatch a newborn from a poor, 18-year-old birthmom. Let him have the baby AND the birthmom so mother and child can stay together. If the birthmom meets a guy through a website, for all she knows, he could be a dangerous criminal. Gee, do adoption agencies have any way of checking somebody out? Hmmmm…

Response:

Not true in all cases, but in many cases: It was their choice. They chose the wrong column for their personal ad. They could have chosen MEN SEEKING WOMEN or WOMEN SEEKING MEN and found a mate of the opposite sex with whom to make a baby, but they didn’t. Their choice.

What if the preggo likes women? In other cases, they chose to pursue their careers instead of having children, and now it’s too late. They had a choice, whether to be greedy or breedy. And as they were making shrewd investment decisions and career moves, perhaps they were even figuring that if they run out of time, they could buy a baby

later. Greedy or breedy?  I like that.  Personally I’l take greed over breed anyday. And some cases are even worse. Some mothers had abortions because the timing of their pregnancy didn’t fit well with their career plan. Now, a girl who knows better than to do anything so wicked is being asked to deliver her precious baby into the hands of a "childless" baby-killer.

Birthmoms need to be able to subject the applicants to a polygraph test to find out if they’ve ever had an abortion or deliberately put off children to make money.

And what if they don’t care?   Abortion  rocks. Some couples got rich by delaying children. They could have had a new baby and made do with an older car, but they had to have a brand-new car, their favorite color. Now they want a brand-new child, their favorite color. Let them make do with an older child.

What’s wrong with a new and no crotchfruit? Instead of finding "parents" for the fruit of an unplanned pregnancy, emphasis should be placed on finding a new boyfriend or husband for the pregnant girl. It’s a decision of similar magnitude. A loving family of three is formed, and the story has a happy ending.

Channel Marvin Olasky much? There are single men seeking to adopt a baby, wanting to snatch a newborn from a poor, 18-year-old birthmom. Let him have the baby AND the birthmom so mother and child can stay together. If the birthmom meets a guy through a website, for all she knows, he could be a dangerous criminal. Gee, do adoption agencies have any way of checking somebody out? Hmmmm…

Aren’t all men dangerous criminals? Marley Hapiness is a warm gun – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

Four months after the parents were informed that their babies had died, by the Ploiesti maternity hospital in Prahova county, Romania, the local authorities asked them to go back to the maternity hospital and take home their "abandoned" children. The local authorities have started an investigation at Ploiesti maternity hospital for negligence at work, false information in official documents, and the use of false documents. There were speculations in the Romanian media about baby trafficking, but the Romanian Ministry of Health claims that the incidents were a result of confusion and lack of proper communication between the maternity sections. A decision is still awaited as to what steps will be taken against the two doctors who signed the death certificates, Dr Iancu Georgeta and Dr Pantelimon Marinescu. Source: British Medical Journal, 31 Jan http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7434/248-c My comment: I suspect that hospitals are not the saviors of mankind that they make themselves out to be. I often think we should question the statements of hospitals, and put systems in place which will support home births. Synette International Pro-life Federation

Response:

Four months after the parents were informed that their babies had died, by the Ploiesti maternity hospital in Prahova county, Romania, the local authorities asked them to go back to the maternity hospital and take home their "abandoned" children.

Further to the story in the British Medical Journal, the Sunday Herald have a more logical explanation. It sounds far more plausible than the explanation given in the medical journal. The Sunday Herald says: The Ploiesti State Maternity Hospital, 40 miles from Bucharest, something strange and possibly very sinister has been going on. For this is a place where infants who have been "officially" registered dead are cremated without documentary proof. A place where other babies that were registered as "dead at birth" are suddenly found hidden away, alive and well. Confronted with the hospital’s suspect birth and death figures, Vasile Cepoi, secretary of state at the Romanian Health Ministry, revealed his worst fears last week. "If I had not had official confirmation of these discoveries, I would have said that these goings-on were from the scripts of an implausible film fantasy. Now, however, I can believe anything, including the possibility that all this forms part of a child-smuggling ring." http://www.sundayherald.com/print39549 And the Daily Telegraph reports: Last month it was disclosed that a maternity hospital at Ploiesti had been tricking mothers by pretending their premature babies died at birth. The infants were in fact "fattened" in a pre-natal wing for six months before being exported. It is claimed that 23 babies were smuggled out by the hospital last year alone. In other cases, vulnerable young girls were pressured into giving up their babies for as little as