Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ?Ati, in his book, ?The Family Structure in Islam? (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following:   ?Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child.?   In Islam, there is a clear recognition that ?while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable? (p. 193) and therefore, ?if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child?s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct.? Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, ?the stigma of illegitimacy? does not cling to the innocent child but to ?the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent.? You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur?an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him). In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from! Write back to us if you need further clarification. Allah knows best.

Contact "rent a father" at your local social service department…

Response:

I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA.

(Snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welcome to America. Follow our laws or return to your sand dunes!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ?Ati, in his book, ?The Family Structure in Islam? (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following:   ?Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child.?   In Islam, there is a clear recognition that ?while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable? (p. 193) and therefore, ?if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child?s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct.? Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, ?the stigma of illegitimacy? does not cling to the innocent child but to ?the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent.? You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur?an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him). In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from! Write back to us if you need further clarification. Allah knows best.

I hope he will find his real father

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents

Forget your past. Nobody wanted you, not your mother or your father. They didn’t give a crap about you. Your father wouldn’t raise you ar support you and your mother just screwed anything rhar came along as shown by the fact she screwed a muslem who are known for their usery of women and not giving a damnd about their children. Your father wouldn’t even take you in when your mother dumped you in the garbage. You have parents now that wanted you. they chose you from many other children and went to a lot of trouble and expense to adopt you. They are the ones who loved you, raised you, educated you, and taught you right from wrong. They made you the persom you are today. If Islam was right they would have taught you about Islam. Read this group and see what islam is like. Nothing but lies, twisted half truths and fiction all aimed at hiding the fact that they support terrorism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research.

You see, they are already trying to pass you off as not being a muslem. They don’t want you either. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker.

Didn’t deny it but still didn’t support you. A piece of garbage. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented,

In islam the father can repent but the woman is sentenced to death by stoning. You are interested in this religion? Why? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ‘Ati, in his book, "The Family Structure in Islam" (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following:   "Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child."   In Islam, there is a clear recognition that "while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable" (p. 193) and therefore, "if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child’s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct." Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, "the stigma of illegitimacy" does not cling to the innocent child but to "the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent."

Refer to the previous paragraph. You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead.

Why, would you like to be like your father. Do you know that if you you become a muslem, you are required to get your adoptive parents to convert to islam or kill them. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur’an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him).

He who screwed a 9 year old girl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from!

Yes learn about it, read the news papers as I am sure you have. Don’t forget that the quaran says it is ok to lie to people to get them to convert to islam. Write back to us if you need further clarification.

All one has to do is open their eyes and look at ANY islamic country and it will be absolutely clear that islam is nothing but a cover for terrorism. I have begged for years for islam to go out and rid it’self of terrorism and return itself to the rule of the true believers that live with peace love and understanding instead of for the taste of blood on their lips. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allah knows best.

Response:

juno forger

NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.73.167.78 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ?Ati, in his book, ?The Family Structure in Islam? (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following:   ?Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child.?   In Islam, there is a clear recognition that ?while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable? (p. 193) and therefore, ?if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child?s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct.? Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, ?the stigma of illegitimacy? does not cling to the innocent child but to ?the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent.? You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur?an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him). In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from! Write back to us if you need further clarification. Allah knows best.

Here good advise for you juno

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.73.167.2 I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my  father

Now I understand why he is angry? juno forger is ibin Haram. If you can help juno forger find his abandon father give him call to the nearest shelter.. Here the imposter juno forger tag number 67.73.167.2

Response:

Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al

Question:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

Yes, children don’t belong to nym-shifting assholes.  Drop it at the nearest police station after you’ve sprogged. — —— Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557 Science doesn’t burn people at the stake for disagreeing – Vic Sagerquist

Response:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

This early in the situation, I’d hope adoption is only one of the options you’re considering? But good on you for starting to think about it. Some people just push it out of their minds until the last minute, and then all plans, all decisions, get made under the awful pressure of having to do something right away. I’d say the jury is out on open vs. closed adoptions. Most people think that open adoptions are better for the kid, but they can be hard on the mother, at least in the early months/ years. If you do plan on an open adoption — try to define, quite carefully, what you mean by ‘open.’ Are you thinking of visiting the child frequently? Or are you thinking of letters and photographs? In most states in the US (I am assuming you’re in the US, this may be different if not), there is no way to enforce open adoption. So, for instance, if the people who adopt a baby change their minds about letting the birth mother see the child — there’s no way to make them. Equally, if they have an arrangement that the birth mother visits, say, 4 times a year, and she suddenly decides she doesn’t want to do that any more — there’s no way to force contact either. I’m an a-mom with a closed adoption. My own personal view is that if one has an open adoption, with personal contact (visits), then it’s particularly important between the ages of about 5, say, and 20, that one should be willing to keep in touch. I think it would be very hurtful for the child if it comes to expect you to visit, perceives the birthmother as something more than just a visiting aunt, and then the birthmother cuts off contact. From what I’ve read, those breaks in contact usually happen when

there’s a life change for the birthmother (new marriage, relocation); when she finds it emotionally unbearable (though usually this is earlier on — say 0-5) to see her child as someone else’s child; or when she is disrespected (or feels she has been disrespected) by the adopting family. Whatever the reason, it can be hard on the kid. Of course, breaks can also occur when the adopting family for some reason breaks contact. That may be something uncontrollable from the birthmother’s viewpoint, and can be heartbreaking. When an open adoption goes well, I think it appears to be a good experience for all concerned. Several of the a-parents on this ng have experience with open adoptions and warm relationships. Take a look at adoption.com It’s a moderated board, but it does have quite a few discussions of experiences from every perspective. Rupa

Response:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

Response:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

I suggest you quit dreaming and get some serious counseling.  It is still early in your pregnancy.  Please be sure you take the time to think things through completely! — KL Your argument is sound, nothing but sound. -Benjamin Franklin —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

Question:

This reply is really long… probably too long to read. I started it this morning while I was still half asleep.. anyways- I have taken the morning after pill and I am "anti abortion" It doesnt even give the egg a chance to attach or have a  possibility of life.. much like regular birth control /condoms etc. in my opinion. I have an extremely difficult time getting pregnant.. I have something called PCOS where ovulation is here and there etc. – and incompetent cervix so holding a baby was next to impossible (due to my mother taking DES – a miscarriage preventative-while pregnant with me) I wanted a baby desperately. Everywhere I would see drug addicts and 13 yr olds with babies that they could not even provide for.. mentally or physically. It disgusted me. My sister had 3 kids, one she had taken away, one she had adopted by a great family, and the other, the meth baby, she has with her now. Her son she has now spent his first 4 yrs homeless with a meth addicted mother and father.. she refused help for him and was cut off from welfare for abusing it. he is 6 now, she has a job and finally got it together, quit drugs blah blah.. but he still remembers drying out cookies on the dash of a car that they salvaged from the trash. He is now very strange! an obvious drug baby. and incredibly mean and confused. I love my nephew but this is not something that will go away for him, his life will be very difficult for the rest of his life for the choices my sister made. the only exceptions for me, though there are quite a few! rape – too traumatizing and too many variables even for someone to adopt. if youre beyond 3 months – have someone adopt! if it was consensual sex and you are able to take care of a child mentally and physically… not just because it will burden your finances or fun.. if you can, it is your responsibility.. if youre still a kid (under 16-17) adoption may  not be right because youre still so young, you may have severe regret in the future. if you fear abuse to the child and will do nothing about it… (sexual abuse from parents or something of the sort) if you use drugs or alcohol so much that it would damage the kid..I mean, a serious addict, not someone who just "cant quit" due to selfishness. This is unfair to the child even if there is an adoption I also think it is ok if severe mental or physical defects are found.. though at the same time, there are alot of findings that turn out to be absolutely nothing. Things along that line. but never just because you slipped up and "oops" I think there might be more, but you get the point -kim

Response:

Hi Kim, I enjoy seeing how you express yourself. My view on Pro-choice is slightly confusing, even to me. I believe abortion is an extremely profound decision and the results are life long. I also believe many anti-abortion people believe we are all going to heaven or hell as a group and therefore have to regulate the group according to their own religious standards. They scare me. Clearly they are oppressors. I think their end goalis are to arrest all pregnent woman and tie them down until they give a baby. If a woman does not have the authority to make the decision if the pregnancy should proceed or be terminated then she is truely a baby machine for the culture. She is enslaved. Even the capacity to do the good is denied her. I believe this too. I tend to go with Pro-choice because then it keeps me out of it. Its not my business what happens to "her" body. It is a prodfound ethical question. Dam

Response:

MSNBC… "The morning-after pill contains a higher dose of regular contraception hormones. It prevents pregnancy by delaying a woman’s ovulation or preventing fertilization. It also can thin the lining of the uterus, making it difficult for a fertilized egg to implant. Anti-abortion groups see interfering with a fertilized egg as abortion." Hi Folks, Damo here. Gouvenor Petaki vetoed access to the pill without a doctors prescription. Consider, the morning-after pill prevents pregnancy but is seen as abortion by the Radical Fundementalist Christian Right because it MIGHT interfere with a fertilzed egg from hooking up to Mama. So then……. All all you have to do is drag some woman off from a parking lot and the entire nation, supreme court, all the other men, and all the Holy Churches will see to it that you become a father without regard to the woman involved. Just squirt some joy juice into her and game over. She be a mere fertile field and the goal of life is to plow the field. Sucess is assured by God and Nation! Oh Boy! Wherz the women??

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Former Teacher Charged for Sex With Teen Last Update: 8/1/2005         4:24:04 PM Colonie, NY (AP) – A former English teacher at a Catholic high school was charged Monday with rape for allegedly having sex with an underage student. Sandra "Beth" Geisel, 42, was charged with two counts of third-degree rape and two counts of endangering the welfare of a child, police said. Geisel was initially found by police in a parked car with a 17-year-old student in June. Though no charges were filed in that incident because the teen was of legal age, Geisel was fired from her teaching job at Christian Brother’s Academy in suburban Albany. During that investigation, a 16-year-old boy came forward and said he had sexual intercourse with Geisel on two separate occasions, leading to the charges against her, police said. Geisel, who now lives in Summit, NJ, turned herself into police on Monday.

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State Legislator Wants To Keep Sex Offenders From Town Pools Last Update: 8/4/2005     7:52:36 AM (Airmont, NY) AP 08/04/05 — There’s a move to ban convicted sex offenders from municipal swimming pools. State Assemblyman Ryan Karben says he’ll introduce a bill requiring towns to check the state’s Sex Offender Registry when a person applies for a pass at any public pool in New York state. Anyone on the registry, including those considered at low-risk to repeat their crimes, would be denied a pass under Karben’s plan. Right now, anyone who shows proof of residency can get a daily or seasonal pool pass. Rockland has seven municipal pools three in Clarkstown, two in Ramapo, and one each in Haverstraw and Stony Point. Karben announced the proposal Wednesday at a town pool in Ramapo. Susan Garcia of Chestnut Ridge called Karben’s plan "pure garbage" because Ramapo allows New Jersey residents and other out-of-towners to use the facility if they pay an $8 admission fee. Garcia said, "What good is it not allowing Rockland sex offenders in when you’re letting in 800 out-of-state people?" Ramapo Supervisor Christopher Saint Lawrence said town pool workers would start checking the IDs of all swimmers if Karben’s bill became state law. He said Ramapo could use the national sex offender database to see if pool users from neighboring states were registered sex offenders. But a spokeswoman from the Department of Criminal Justice said it could not force New Jersey or other states to hand over their sex offender lists.

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Question:

Top post: Does anyone in Canada still take any notice of that old loony? (Barbra Kay I mean, not Jackie) Robin

BTW This story also appears at the following blog site http://www.conservativegroundswell.com/index/weblog/comments/adoption… Where after registering with the site, you can add your own comments. Robin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have to subscribe to the National Post to see this article.. But here it is in case no one has seen it.. Jackie snip Barbara Kay Adoption is forever When our children were toddlers, my husband and I planned a vacation by ourselves involving a transatlantic flight. Morbid images of downed planes and orphaned children assailed us. Since there were several worthy candidates, we agonized over a choice for guardianship in that worst-case scenario. An older lawyer offered surprising advice: "It’s a mistake to appoint specific guardians in writing. Their situation can change in the interim. In my experience, the right person comes forward if needed." I wondered if I could be the "right person" for my sisters’ children in tragic circumstances. I reflected that at least I would have the advantage of being their only mother in perpetuity. There would be no fantasies of hooking up with bio-parents later on to undermine the legitimacy of my status. Moreover, they’d feel grateful and not, as seems the case today in our culture of complaint, like psychically wounded "victims" whose filial attachment is always contingent on mood or circumstance. In short, both our roles and their mutual exclusivity would be irrevocable. Ontario residents who adopt children may soon have far less certainty. As things stand, birth parents and adoptees maintain the right to veto the release of their personal files. But under a proposed new law, adoptees would be given access to their records and the identities of their birth parents once the children turn 18; and birth parents would be given access to the identity of their adopted-out children. A "no contact" notice will supposedly protect those adoptive parents and children who want information, but not a relationship. The effect of the proposed law will be to psychologically divide children’s filial attachment between the adoptive parents who have invested everything — time, money, limitless emotional energy — and the birth parent (usually the bio-mother), who has nothing but DNA in common with the child. Who’d buy a home, if after 18 years the bank could retroactively designate your mortgage payments as rent cheques? Who will take advantage of the opportunity? Not the well-adjusted bio-parent who went on to a successful new family life. She’s happy her first "accidental" child was raised in the stable home she couldn’t provide, and has the maturity to respect its painstakingly crafted integrity by remaining anonymous. No, it’s the unhappy, the immature, the selfish, the psychologically needy, the insolvent, the lonely bio-parent with a sense of grievance or entitlement, who thinks finding her "lost" child will fill the aching void: She will take advantage of the law, resulting in guilt, resentment and blame on one or both sides. Adopted children have a right to their genetic histories for obvious reasons. But they should be discouraged — or at least not encouraged — from nursing romantic fantasies of establishing a relationship with bio-parents. They’re too young and idealistic to apply realistic criteria to such a charged decision. Lost in a Hollywood reunion mist, they’ll ignore the cynical but necessary questions that arise from life experience. What is your relationship to this bio-mother? A second parent? A friend? A kind of sibling? A financial responsibility? What if you hate her on sight, but she thinks you’re her emotional saviour? Or her meal ticket? Are you obliged to continue seeing her? To pay for her rehab? How often will you get together? Christmas? Birthdays? Whenever she wants? Will she have equal status as a grandparent when you have a child? What if she’s totally cool — unlike your square adoptive parents — and you want further intimacy, thereby hurting the real family who raised you? I can think of a hundred more negative psychological outcomes, and very few positive. If I were adopting, I’d go to China, whose processing system is sophisticated and reliable, their babies generally healthy and well-cared for. Most attractive of all is the unlikelihood of a certain Ms. Wong from Beijing turning up 18 years from now to trivialize my role and redefine me as a long-term foster parent rather than mother. When parents die, the "right person" comes forward. When a child is adopted, the "right person" — the thoughtful bio-parent — stays away. This Ontario law will only encourage the wrong person to come forward. It’s a carelessly conceived initiative that should forever languish in the Bad Idea Orphanage.

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Top post: Does anyone in Canada still take any notice of that old loony? (Barbra Kay I mean, not Jackie) Robin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have to subscribe to the National Post to see this article.. But here it is in case no one has seen it.. Jackie snip Barbara Kay Adoption is forever When our children were toddlers, my husband and I planned a vacation by ourselves involving a transatlantic flight. Morbid images of downed planes and orphaned children assailed us. Since there were several worthy candidates, we agonized over a choice for guardianship in that worst-case scenario. An older lawyer offered surprising advice: "It’s a mistake to appoint specific guardians in writing. Their situation can change in the interim. In my experience, the right person comes forward if needed." I wondered if I could be the "right person" for my sisters’ children in tragic circumstances. I reflected that at least I would have the advantage of being their only mother in perpetuity. There would be no fantasies of hooking up with bio-parents later on to undermine the legitimacy of my status. Moreover, they’d feel grateful and not, as seems the case today in our culture of complaint, like psychically wounded "victims" whose filial attachment is always contingent on mood or circumstance. In short, both our roles and their mutual exclusivity would be irrevocable. Ontario residents who adopt children may soon have far less certainty. As things stand, birth parents and adoptees maintain the right to veto the release of their personal files. But under a proposed new law, adoptees would be given access to their records and the identities of their birth parents once the children turn 18; and birth parents would be given access to the identity of their adopted-out children. A "no contact" notice will supposedly protect those adoptive parents and children who want information, but not a relationship. The effect of the proposed law will be to psychologically divide children’s filial attachment between the adoptive parents who have invested everything — time, money, limitless emotional energy — and the birth parent (usually the bio-mother), who has nothing but DNA in common with the child. Who’d buy a home, if after 18 years the bank could retroactively designate your mortgage payments as rent cheques? Who will take advantage of the opportunity? Not the well-adjusted bio-parent who went on to a successful new family life. She’s happy her first "accidental" child was raised in the stable home she couldn’t provide, and has the maturity to respect its painstakingly crafted integrity by remaining anonymous. No, it’s the unhappy, the immature, the selfish, the psychologically needy, the insolvent, the lonely bio-parent with a sense of grievance or entitlement, who thinks finding her "lost" child will fill the aching void: She will take advantage of the law, resulting in guilt, resentment and blame on one or both sides. Adopted children have a right to their genetic histories for obvious reasons. But they should be discouraged — or at least not encouraged — from nursing romantic fantasies of establishing a relationship with bio-parents. They’re too young and idealistic to apply realistic criteria to such a charged decision. Lost in a Hollywood reunion mist, they’ll ignore the cynical but necessary questions that arise from life experience. What is your relationship to this bio-mother? A second parent? A friend? A kind of sibling? A financial responsibility? What if you hate her on sight, but she thinks you’re her emotional saviour? Or her meal ticket? Are you obliged to continue seeing her? To pay for her rehab? How often will you get together? Christmas? Birthdays? Whenever she wants? Will she have equal status as a grandparent when you have a child? What if she’s totally cool — unlike your square adoptive parents — and you want further intimacy, thereby hurting the real family who raised you? I can think of a hundred more negative psychological outcomes, and very few positive. If I were adopting, I’d go to China, whose processing system is sophisticated and reliable, their babies generally healthy and well-cared for. Most attractive of all is the unlikelihood of a certain Ms. Wong from Beijing turning up 18 years from now to trivialize my role and redefine me as a long-term foster parent rather than mother. When parents die, the "right person" comes forward. When a child is adopted, the "right person" — the thoughtful bio-parent — stays away. This Ontario law will only encourage the wrong person to come forward. It’s a carelessly conceived initiative that should forever languish in the Bad Idea Orphanage.

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You have to subscribe to the National Post to see this article.. But here it is in case no one has seen it.. Jackie snip

Barbara Kay Adoption is forever When our children were toddlers, my husband and I planned a vacation by ourselves involving a transatlantic flight. Morbid images of downed planes and orphaned children assailed us. Since there were several worthy candidates, we agonized over a choice for guardianship in that worst-case scenario. An older lawyer offered surprising advice: "It’s a mistake to appoint specific guardians in writing. Their situation can change in the interim. In my experience, the right person comes forward if needed." I wondered if I could be the "right person" for my sisters’ children in tragic circumstances. I reflected that at least I would have the advantage of being their only mother in perpetuity. There would be no fantasies of hooking up with bio-parents later on to undermine the legitimacy of my status. Moreover, they’d feel grateful and not, as seems the case today in our culture of complaint, like psychically wounded "victims" whose filial attachment is always contingent on mood or circumstance. In short, both our roles and their mutual exclusivity would be irrevocable. Ontario residents who adopt children may soon have far less certainty. As things stand, birth parents and adoptees maintain the right to veto the release of their personal files. But under a proposed new law, adoptees would be given access to their records and the identities of their birth parents once the children turn 18; and birth parents would be given access to the identity of their adopted-out children. A "no contact" notice will supposedly protect those adoptive parents and children who want information, but not a relationship. The effect of the proposed law will be to psychologically divide children’s filial attachment between the adoptive parents who have invested everything — time, money, limitless emotional energy — and the birth parent (usually the bio-mother), who has nothing but DNA in common with the child. Who’d buy a home, if after 18 years the bank could retroactively designate your mortgage payments as rent cheques? Who will take advantage of the opportunity? Not the well-adjusted bio-parent who went on to a successful new family life. She’s happy her first "accidental" child was raised in the stable home she couldn’t provide, and has the maturity to respect its painstakingly crafted integrity by remaining anonymous. No, it’s the unhappy, the immature, the selfish, the psychologically needy, the insolvent, the lonely bio-parent with a sense of grievance or entitlement, who thinks finding her "lost" child will fill the aching void: She will take advantage of the law, resulting in guilt, resentment and blame on one or both sides. Adopted children have a right to their genetic histories for obvious reasons. But they should be discouraged — or at least not encouraged — from nursing romantic fantasies of establishing a relationship with bio-parents. They’re too young and idealistic to apply realistic criteria to such a charged decision. Lost in a Hollywood reunion mist, they’ll ignore the cynical but necessary questions that arise from life experience. What is your relationship to this bio-mother? A second parent? A friend? A kind of sibling? A financial responsibility? What if you hate her on sight, but she thinks you’re her emotional saviour? Or her meal ticket? Are you obliged to continue seeing her? To pay for her rehab? How often will you get together? Christmas? Birthdays? Whenever she wants? Will she have equal status as a grandparent when you have a child? What if she’s totally cool — unlike your square adoptive parents — and you want further intimacy, thereby hurting the real family who raised you? I can think of a hundred more negative psychological outcomes, and very few positive. If I were adopting, I’d go to China, whose processing system is sophisticated and reliable, their babies generally healthy and well-cared for. Most attractive of all is the unlikelihood of a certain Ms. Wong from Beijing turning up 18 years from now to trivialize my role and redefine me as a long-term foster parent rather than mother. When parents die, the "right person" comes forward. When a child is adopted, the "right person" — the thoughtful bio-parent — stays away. This Ontario law will only encourage the wrong person to come forward. It’s a carelessly conceived initiative that should forever languish in the Bad Idea Orphanage.

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Question:

It didn’t show up…..not sure why the message delayed posting…but it did.

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Here’s a clip from an earlier reply to a similar question: My thoughts, as an adoptive parent and as a lawyer who does not practice in the area of adoption: 1. Don’t use a private lawyer or facilitator. 2. If you do, ask the lawyer and yourselves (where appropriate) the following questions: A. Whether the lawyer has ever been disciplined for professional misconduct or violation of the rules governing attorneys. Has a complaint been filed by any former client, whether it resulted in formal charges or discipline or not? Who filed it? Why? How does the lawyer feel about the accuracy of the complaint? B. What states is the lawyer licensed in and for how long. Check with the states for information on disciplinary action. C. What is a "legal risk" adoption, if you don’t already know. What precisely does that mean in your state or the states in which the lawyer operates? In what percentage of the lawyers own cases has that risk become fact? How often generally in the state(s) in which the lawyer works?  Are you prepared to return a child to his or her parents without a legal battle if he or she assert their rights to revoke consent? Even if the technical clock has run? If not, rethink your position carefully. D. References? Beware of references, because a lawyer should identify other clients only with their permission. Ask the references if he had their permission to identify them. If not, I’d question the lawyer’s ethics and walk. Obviously, no one gives a reference they expect will have anything bad to say about them, so read between the lines when you speak to them – are they describing any procedures you are uncomfortable with? Ask them if the lawyer did anything that made them uncomfortable. Were there any sudden additional charges? Did he or she return calls? Keep them advised? Respond promptly and clearly to their questions? E. Will you be asked to pay anything to the prospective birthmother other than medical expenses (and perhaps living expenses)?  If so, why? Ask for a copy of the law that authorizes payment of these expenses. Question whether the payment of any additional expenses (even these expenses) is ethical. Are you "buying" a child or could your child later believe that you did? Then don’t. F. What are the costs, including the lawyer’s fee and why is the fee what it is? What is the lawyer’s normal hourly rate – how does this match up with the fee charged? For example, if the rate is $200.00 an hour and the fee is $15,000.00, ask for an explanation of how the lawyer arrived at an estimated 75 hours of work for an adoption. Are you being charged for more than legal services – if so, which. G. Does the lawyer work with a facilitator? Which? Why? Is the facilitator licensed? (Only in a few states, I believe.) Check out the facilitator. H. Do the prospective birthmothers with whom the lawyer works receive independent legal counsel? (They should, for your benefit as well as theirs.) Do they have access to counseling services before and after the termination of their parental rights? With whom? What services? For how long? I. What is the lawyer’s practice with respect to prospective birthfathers? Does the lawyer work in states with "putative father registries"? Get an explanation of what that means and decide whether you find the procedures ethical. If you do, has the law in the state in question been tested? Is it being tested now? What will you do if it is tested in your situation? (Has the lawyer ever litigated a contested adoption? How many? Outcomes? Costs? Not included in the lawyer’s initial fees, is it?) J. Why does the lawyer practice in this area? Is the lawyer an adoptive parent himself or herself? How many adoptions has he or she handled in the past year? total? K. Is the lawyer a member of any adoption-oriented bar or professional organizations? Ask about those organizations. Are they simply "pay your money and be a member" organizations, cheap PR, or do they have specific eligibility criteria with teeth in them and procedures for disciplining or eliminating members who don’t meet standards or who are found to have used unethical practices? L. Does the lawyer practice in any other areas of law? (If not, I question whether you’re paying the lawyer to provide legal services or to simply find a child. Do you want someone representing you in what may be the most important legal matter of your life, whose primary interest may be making a substantial amount of money as quickly as possible? Frankly, I find it impossible to believe that the actual legal work involved in most adoptions amounts to more than a day’s work, including the court appearance. Ask your lawyer how long he or she thinks will be spent on the legal aspects of your situation and what will be involved.) There are no doubt dozens of additional questions you can ask the lawyer. But first, ask yourselves why it is you are using a private adoption lawyer? I assume you seek to adopt an infant. OK. Are you using a lawyer because you think it will result in a faster placement? OK. Will it result in an ethical placement? J. [Written in response to a person asking how to investigate an agency and about the validity of a "guaranteed" placement.] How can they guarantee placement?  I wouldn’t want to say it’s a lie, but I’d love to hear the explanation for how they can guarantee anything, particularly a placement within a specified time frame. (By the way, is this in writing? What happens if the guarantee is not met?) Before doing business with anyone offering a guarantee, consider the pressure that this creates for the business to find a placement – "Hey, if we don’t find a child for these people we have to give their money back." "We already spent that money! Find ‘em a baby, I don’t care what you have to do."  (Note: This is, of course, a hypothetical situation and is in no way intended as a comment on any particular organization, including the above.) Offering such guarantees does not contribute to ethical adoption practices, IMO. Can they offer scholarships? Not in my jurisdiction, unless the "scholarship" program is completely unrelated to whether a woman terminates her parental rights. In other words, if the "scholarship" is contingent on relinquishment of the child, it is illegal where I live. But before you get to the question of legality, consider whether this is ethical. It is not, in my opinion. Even if you can accept it as ethical, consider the practical – how will the child feel to learn that he or she was traded for an education, with you buying the education. Regardless of your intent, I suspect many adoptees would view it in this light at some point in time. As to investigating the background, is this a licensed agency or an adoption facilitator? (If it is a facilitator, rethink the whole proposition, IMO.) If an agency, start with the agency itself and the state agency that regulates adoption. Ask the agency for the following information (in writing) and ask the state agency the same questions about the agency: Who organized the agency? When? Where? Are they a non-profit? If so, are they an arm of a reputable and ethical charitable organization, of a law firm specializing in adoption (a negative, IMO), or is it a "mom and pop" operation run from someone’s home? (Another negative, IMO.) Has disciplinary or criminal action been taken against the agency (or its founder, officers or any of its employees) by the state? Identify the nature of the business: corporation? (profit or non-profit?) partnership? sole-proprietorship? Then contact the Secretary of State (or other appropriate office) of the State(s) in which the company was organized and in which it is licensed to do business, for information on other names under which it has been known and other listings they may have for the founders, officers and employees of the agency. Know as much of the above as you can before you start paying someone else to investigate. It will save you money on the investigation, if it doesn’t put an end to your interest in the agency. J.

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My wife and I are starting the process.   What resources are there to research various agencies operating in California – complaints, successes, problems, etc.?  Also how did people SELECT an agency?  Any helpful hints to getting past the slick web sites with baby pictures would be extremely helpful since we are essentially entering into a legal contract with the agency and would like to be able to interview and select one that we feel is going to work well.

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My wife and I are starting the process.   What resources are there to research various agencies operating in California – complaints, successes, problems, etc.?  Also how did people SELECT an agency?  Any helpful hints to getting past the slick web sites with baby pictures would be extremely helpful since we are essentially entering into a legal contract with the agency and would like to be able to interview and select one that we feel is going to work well.

Had you forgotten you’d already asked here the once? Robin

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Question:

">> >> And before you finger pointers start in on me read the paragraph > >> third from the last again…… The Friggin courts awarded this bimbo > >> (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a month in child support > >> for a child she conceived through out and out deception! > >There was ZERO "deception" in the sending of the sperm into the stream > >of possibility,

The man engaged in acts which could not cause pregnancy. The female twarted his intent by taking sperm from her mouth, condom,ass etc and using it to impregnate herself. That’s fraud. The man’s original case of unlawful use of sperm  had merit. The law views the intent, which in this case was the unauthorised use of the man’s sperm, and the fact that she actually used it to become pregnant as a CRIME. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<SNIP> >You have to remember that the courts were presented with two stories, >as to how conception happened.   It was a case of her word against his, >with really no way of proving which side was telling the truth. >In such a situation a reasonable person might go with the more >plausible story (ie. that the child was conceived in the normal way), >and thus rule accordingly.

That’s a lot better theory than this "Stream of Possibility" BS.

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On 25 Feb 2005 09:17:06 -0800, "Hyerdahl" <Hyerda…@aol.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> >wrote: >>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… >> >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy >> >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer >> >Thursday, February 24, 2005 >(edit) >> OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. >> If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the >tables here would be SOOOOO turned! >Not so, dear.  If a woman is raped, and she bears a child she doesn’t >want, she is still responsible for that child unless the child is >adopted.  Of course, men don’t have a legal option to "make" women >pregnant, nor can they (in the west) force a woman to continue a >pregnancy.   Men and women have the same rights but not the same >abilities, and no, men have no right to reach into the body or rights >of another simply because they sent their own sperm into the stream of >possibility.

We are not talking rape here….. What about a man that put a hole in his condom? Or in some other way introiduced semen to make the woman pregnant without her really knowing it was being done? I beg your pardon. Men and women do NOT have the same rights. If a man gets a woman pregnant and wants the child… but the woman wants the abortion…. who do you think is going to win? And this woman DID have the right to reach into the body of this man and extract his semen for her own gains…. and then later expect the man to pay for the child he obviously tried to avoid bringing into the world?? Strange logic. >And before you finger pointers start in >> on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin >> courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a >> month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out >> deception! >There was ZERO "deception" in the sending of the sperm into the stream >of possibility, and that’s all the court is looking at or needs to look >at in the best interests of children.  If you don’t want to risk having >a child, keep your sperm to yourself.

OK….. Try this on…. Had the guy ejaculated into a kleenex and tossed it in the trash can and she retreived it and done the same thing…. would you STILL hold this argument. I guess you also hold that a sperm donar is liable for the support of the child that is created later without his knowledge? >That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like >> it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing >> their out and out bias against men and towards women! >Oh, hon….women could care less whether you call them witches, >bitches, or ‘hos’.  They have the law;  they have equal rights, and >they even have guns.  What they don’t have to put up with is bitter >boys like you.

They have EXCEPTIONAL rights. ANd yes… they have the law which has been warped and manipulated to fit their wants. It’s just a damned shame more men don;t have the guts and convictions to say no to this kind of crap and let you women go find your fulfillments at the battery counter for a while! There is not a damned thing bitter about be honey. This is practicality fighting back! YOu women have managed to twist a few self serving politicians around your fingers…. that does NOT mean you got EQUAL rights…. it means you got YOUR WAY for now. It will swing back again.

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Short men are pathetic and should be rounded up and exterminated.  On the other hand, they ARE so much fun to laugh at …

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"Curious_Orange" <curious_ora…@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1109333291.537282.167090@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com… > Boy, the kid is just gonna love reading about this > when it grows up.

To avoid such distressing situations for "the kid", we once had sealed-records adoptions.  The time to restore that practice is now. —    When a man "thinks with his penis"    that’s his opportunity to experience    how women think all the time.

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"J" <janderson_ish…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1109374586.302521.209360@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Has she no shame.

An empty uterus has no shame, only baby-hunger.

Response:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:56:33 +0100, "Tron" <tronf…@frisurf.no> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><Skinn…@hotmail.com> skrev i melding >news:cu4u11t2av53k0p4vddqq12eakeiol91pl@4ax.com… >> OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. >> If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the tables >> here would be SOOOOO turned! And before you finger pointers start in >> on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin >> courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a >> month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out >> deception! That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like >> it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing >> their out and out bias against men and towards women! >> This is just another pathetic example of how one sided our legal >> system is against men! (looks at his world atlas again wondering if >> there really is anyplace where the world has not been turned upside >> down!) >What would this entail for those who maintain that men have control over >their reproduction? >T

Men have 100% control over their reproduction. I have exerted that control for over 10 years now and I am CERTAIN that I have NO children running around out there. But my choice is not somebody else’s choice. This guy obviously made his "deposite" in a manner which he considered safe and was deceived by a manipulative bitch! No other way to look at it!

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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:59:28 GMT, BLACK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<franky…@heliostat.phron.net> wrote: >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:36:49 -0500, howldog <lifeisg…@hotmail.com> >wrote: >>On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:56:33 +0100, "Tron" <tronf…@frisurf.no> >>wrote: >>><Skinn…@hotmail.com> skrev i melding >>>news:cu4u11t2av53k0p4vddqq12eakeiol91pl@4ax.com… >>>> OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. >>>> If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the tables >>>> here would be SOOOOO turned! And before you finger pointers start in >>>> on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin >>>> courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a >>>> month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out >>>> deception! That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like >>>> it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing >>>> their out and out bias against men and towards women! >>>> This is just another pathetic example of how one sided our legal >>>> system is against men! (looks at his world atlas again wondering if >>>> there really is anyplace where the world has not been turned upside >>>> down!) >>>What would this entail for those who maintain that men have control over >>>their reproduction? >>the usual sneering comments from the hardline man-hating feminists, >>"haha! tough shit, keep it in your pants, get a blow up doll, you cant >>get laid, you have a tiny dick" etc etc. >>Thats the amount of sympathy you can expect. >Artificially inseminated woman sues for child support… and wins. >If the courts are not going to take reasonable actions to protect >private propterty perhaps that responsibility falls to us. >The child belongs in the custody of chidren’s services and his or her >(first and foremost the father) and then the  immediate family should >have first say in adoption. >This woman is a criminal, she is not entitled to the gaines of her >crime or freedom afforded to the people who live under the law. >If the courts are not going to take resonable actions to protect the >right of property, that obligation falls to us.

Very well said!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hyerdahl wrote: > Curious_Orange wrote: > > Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > > > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> > > wrote: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… > > > >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy > > > >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer > > > >Thursday, February 24, 2005 > >" A man who says his former lover deceived him by getting pregnant > > using> >semen obtained through oral sex can sue for emotional > distress – > > but >not theft, an appeals court has ruled." > > You have to remember that the courts were presented with two stories, > > as to how conception happened.   It was a case of her word against > his, > > with really no way of proving which side was telling the truth. > Actually, the court doesn’t care HOW the conception started.  Both > women and men are simply 100% responsible for their own seed.  Even if > a woman is raped, and she delivers a child, she is responsible FOR that > child, regardless of lack of agreement of conception. > > In such a situation a reasonable person might go with the more > > plausible story (ie. that the child was conceived in the normal way), > > and thus rule accordingly. > The courts don’t really care one way or the other on how conception > occurs.

ahh yes.. I went back and reread the article and now see it was about 2 entirely different court cases. The paternity one – which I suppose would look at simple hard evidence like DNA matching – was earlier. Still all leaves a bit of a sour taste in the mouth (haha)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Curious_Orange wrote: > Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> > wrote: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… > > >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy > > >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer > > >Thursday, February 24, 2005 >" A man who says his former lover deceived him by getting pregnant > using> >semen obtained through oral sex can sue for emotional distress – > but >not theft, an appeals court has ruled." > You have to remember that the courts were presented with two stories, > as to how conception happened.   It was a case of her word against his, > with really no way of proving which side was telling the truth.

Actually, the court doesn’t care HOW the conception started.  Both women and men are simply 100% responsible for their own seed.  Even if a woman is raped, and she delivers a child, she is responsible FOR that child, regardless of lack of agreement of conception. > In such a situation a reasonable person might go with the more > plausible story (ie. that the child was conceived in the normal way), > and thus rule accordingly.

The courts don’t really care one way or the other on how conception occurs.

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 In article <1109351826.415411.214…@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Hyerdahl <Hyerda…@aol.com> wrote: >Not so, dear.  If a woman is raped, and she bears a child she doesn’t >want, she is still responsible for that child unless the child is >adopted.

*If* she continues to bear the rapist’s child, a fellow human being IMO. Does she *have* to accept responsibility for that child, like a man *has* to accept financial responsibility for a child he sires, if he gets caught? >Men and women have the same rights but not the same abilities, and no,

Women have the legal choice to keep, abort, or give up for adoption a child.  Many jurisdictions *deny* fathers the right to keep (adopt) their child if the mother doesn’t want it. >men have no right to reach into the body or rights of another simply >because they sent their own sperm into the stream of possibility.

So if a woman walks down an alley in skimpy clothes and gets raped, is that simply tough luck because she submitted her body to the "stream of possibility"??? WOMENSES IS GUT UND VALUABLE!! MENSES IS EVILZ AND DISPOSABLE!!  HEIL HITLER!!! >> And before you finger pointers start in on me read the paragraph >> third from the last again…… The Friggin courts awarded this bimbo >> (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a month in child support >> for a child she conceived through out and out deception! >There was ZERO "deception" in the sending of the sperm into the stream >of possibility,

Enough with your "stream of possibility" nonsense already!  You’re *SO* close to saying that there’s ZERO "rape" in the sending of a woman’s body into the stream of possibility.  Except you’re not actually saying it. I wonder if men could start suing women for copyright violation (unauthorized making of a derived work).  After all, genomes seem to be fair game for copyright or even patents… >and that’s all the court is looking at or needs to look at in the best >interests of children.  If you don’t want to risk having a child, keep >your sperm to yourself.

If you don’t want to get raped, stay in your home. You’ve just decided that some metaphyiscal "stream of possibility" is more important than *actual*, *concrete* CONSENT! >What they don’t have to put up with is bitter boys like you.

Yes, they do have to put up with "bitter boys" like him.  Killing people for having dissenting opinions is, still, illegal. Why do you feel it necessary to kneejerk anyone who dissents from misandrist feminism as "bitter"?  (Beware of straw men; Skinner may actually be bitter, may even have confirmed so himself.) – — A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet? —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQFCH7od/FmLrNfLpjMRAvWBAJ43X5I1fEMjpP+jLQ+D9aqsf38v+ACfcewH XH5/TipapYgZd/EA0zOa0aA= =EaFU —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

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Has she no shame.

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Forced child support is perfectly legal if you have a child or have contracted to raise one.  It happens all the time, dear.

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"Curious_Orange" <curious_ora…@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in news:1109355400.702340.285240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> > wrote: >>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/24 >>/national/a095250S07.DTL >> >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy >> >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer >> >Thursday, February 24, 2005 >> >A man who says his former lover deceived him by getting pregnant > using >> >semen obtained through oral sex can sue for emotional distress – > but >> >not theft, an appeals court has ruled. >> >Dr. Richard O. Phillips accuses Dr. Sharon Irons of a "calculated, >> >profound personal betrayal" six years ago, but she says they had the >> >baby through sexual intercourse. >> >The Illinois Appeals Court said Wednesday that Phillips can press a >> >claim for emotional distress after alleging Irons had used his sperm >> >to have a baby, but agreed that however the baby was conceived, > Irons >> >didn’t steal the sperm. >> >"She asserts that when plaintiff ‘delivered’ his sperm, it was a >> >gift," the decision said. "There was no agreement that the original >> >deposit would be returned upon request." >> >The ruling sends the case back to Cook County Circuit Court. >> >Phillips, a Chicago family doctor, alleges that he and Irons never > had >> >intercourse during their four-month tryst, although they had oral > sex >> >three times. His suit contends that Irons without his knowledge kept >> >some of his semen. >> >The relationship ended, the suit said, when Phillips learned Irons > had >> >lied to him about being recently divorced and was still married to >> >another doctor. >> >Irons, who practices internal medicine in suburban Olympia Fields, >> >said in a telephone interview Thursday that Phillips knew she was >> >still married during their affair, and also knew she was pregnant > with >> >his child. >> >"He was very supportive and very happy about it," she said. "He > said, >> >`You need to hurry up and get your divorce.’" >> >He promised to marry her and asked her to quit her job, she said, > but >> >several days before her last day at work, Phillips informed her that >> >he "couldn’t go through with it." >> >Nearly two years after their affair, Irons filed a paternity suit > and >> >Phillips was ordered to pay $800 a month in child support, said > Irons’ >> >attorney, Enrico Mirabelli. >> >Phillips then sued Irons, claiming her actions caused him nausea and >> >headaches and robbed him of sleep and his appetite. He is haunted by >> >"feelings of being trapped in a nightmare," court papers state. >> >The appeals court ruling followed a decision by a lower court judge >> >who dismissed Phillips’ suit in 2003. >> OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. >> If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the > tables >> here would be SOOOOO turned! And before you finger pointers start in >> on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin >> courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a >> month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out >> deception! That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like >> it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing >> their out and out bias against men and towards women! >> This is just another pathetic example of how one sided our legal >> system is against men! (looks at his world atlas again wondering if >> there really is anyplace where the world has not been turned upside >> down!) > You have to remember that the courts were presented with two stories, > as to how conception happened.   It was a case of her word against > his, with really no way of proving which side was telling the truth.

There you go confusing the issue with facts! > In such a situation a reasonable person might go with the more > plausible story (ie. that the child was conceived in the normal way), > and thus rule accordingly.

Plus, "ejaculation is a gift of sperm with no agreement for return" is all poetic and stuff.

Response:

On 25 Feb 2005 09:09:11 -0800, "Hyerdahl" <Hyerda…@aol.com> wrote: >So, it appears men cannot win a tort-based suit based on sending his >own sperm into the stream of possibility.    IOW, you can sue over >anything, but can you WIN.  Nah!

and forced child support is illegal.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… > >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy > >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer > >Thursday, February 24, 2005 > >A man who says his former lover deceived him by getting pregnant using > >semen obtained through oral sex can sue for emotional distress – but > >not theft, an appeals court has ruled. > >Dr. Richard O. Phillips accuses Dr. Sharon Irons of a "calculated, > >profound personal betrayal" six years ago, but she says they had the > >baby through sexual intercourse. > >The Illinois Appeals Court said Wednesday that Phillips can press a > >claim for emotional distress after alleging Irons had used his sperm > >to have a baby, but agreed that however the baby was conceived, Irons > >didn’t steal the sperm. > >"She asserts that when plaintiff ‘delivered’ his sperm, it was a > >gift," the decision said. "There was no agreement that the original > >deposit would be returned upon request." > >The ruling sends the case back to Cook County Circuit Court. > >Phillips, a Chicago family doctor, alleges that he and Irons never had > >intercourse during their four-month tryst, although they had oral sex > >three times. His suit contends that Irons without his knowledge kept > >some of his semen. > >The relationship ended, the suit said, when Phillips learned Irons had > >lied to him about being recently divorced and was still married to > >another doctor. > >Irons, who practices internal medicine in suburban Olympia Fields, > >said in a telephone interview Thursday that Phillips knew she was > >still married during their affair, and also knew she was pregnant with > >his child. > >"He was very supportive and very happy about it," she said. "He said, > >`You need to hurry up and get your divorce.’" > >He promised to marry her and asked her to quit her job, she said, but > >several days before her last day at work, Phillips informed her that > >he "couldn’t go through with it." > >Nearly two years after their affair, Irons filed a paternity suit and > >Phillips was ordered to pay $800 a month in child support, said Irons’ > >attorney, Enrico Mirabelli. > >Phillips then sued Irons, claiming her actions caused him nausea and > >headaches and robbed him of sleep and his appetite. He is haunted by > >"feelings of being trapped in a nightmare," court papers state. > >The appeals court ruling followed a decision by a lower court judge > >who dismissed Phillips’ suit in 2003. > OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. > If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the tables > here would be SOOOOO turned! And before you finger pointers start in > on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin > courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a > month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out > deception! That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like > it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing > their out and out bias against men and towards women! > This is just another pathetic example of how one sided our legal > system is against men! (looks at his world atlas again wondering if > there really is anyplace where the world has not been turned upside > down!)

You have to remember that the courts were presented with two stories, as to how conception happened.   It was a case of her word against his, with really no way of proving which side was telling the truth. In such a situation a reasonable person might go with the more plausible story (ie. that the child was conceived in the normal way), and thus rule accordingly.

Response:

So, it appears men cannot win a tort-based suit based on sending his own sperm into the stream of possibility.    IOW, you can sue over anything, but can you WIN.  Nah!

Response:

Skinn…@hotmail.com wrote: > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… > >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy > >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer > >Thursday, February 24, 2005

(edit) > OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. > If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the

tables here would be SOOOOO turned! Not so, dear.  If a woman is raped, and she bears a child she doesn’t want, she is still responsible for that child unless the child is adopted.  Of course, men don’t have a legal option to "make" women pregnant, nor can they (in the west) force a woman to continue a pregnancy.   Men and women have the same rights but not the same abilities, and no, men have no right to reach into the body or rights of another simply because they sent their own sperm into the stream of possibility. And before you finger pointers start in > on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin > courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a > month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out > deception!

There was ZERO "deception" in the sending of the sperm into the stream of possibility, and that’s all the court is looking at or needs to look at in the best interests of children.  If you don’t want to risk having a child, keep your sperm to yourself. That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like > it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing > their out and out bias against men and towards women!

Oh, hon….women could care less whether you call them witches, bitches, or ‘hos’.  They have the law;  they have equal rights, and they even have guns.  What they don’t have to put up with is bitter boys like you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Hardpan wrote:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… > Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy > By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer > Thursday, February 24, 2005 > A man who says his former lover deceived him by getting pregnant using > semen obtained through oral sex can sue for emotional distress – but > not theft, an appeals court has ruled.

All these lawsuits and rulings are just so much noise.  They will never punish her.  They’ll never give him relief, because they would consider this the same as punishing her.  Ergo, this is all a pointless exercise. This event goes beyond that which the almighty appellate court should decide, with it’s vapid rulings and opinions.  If he’s an internal medicine specialist, he should be able to cook up a poison that wouldn’t show up in the autopsy.  Alternately, he’s rich enough to hire a professional.  Either way, the bitch must go.  She’s not just guilty of theft and extortion.  Anyone who would run through the kitchen with a mouth full of semem, looking or a ziploc bag, is so profoundly inferior that someone should relieve us of her presence.  The oxygen she wastes could be used by better people. [...] > The relationship ended, the suit said, when Phillips learned Irons had > lied to him about being recently divorced and was still married to > another doctor.

Well this leech is obviously not content to such from only one neck. [...] > Nearly two years after their affair, Irons filed a paternity suit and > Phillips was ordered to pay $800 a month in child support, said Irons’ > attorney, Enrico Mirabelli.

Big surprise, that.  What’s all this fuss I hear about women being so independent?  About women not needing men?  She’s a doctor, so at least she should be able to pay for the result of knocking herself up.  But, of course, she demands we hear her roar, and then she rattles her cup in the street. [...]

Response:

Curious_Orange wrote: > Boy, the kid is just gonna love reading about this when it grows up. >

mean people suck nice people swallow vengeful people save [?] hp could find as many bizzaro tales of male behavior – but he’s got to feed the beast. imagine; running around w/ a mouthful, looking for a teacup. [almost] everything has it’s funny parts. h

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>What would this entail for those who maintain that men have control over >their reproduction? >T

like it’s going to happen a lot. h

Response:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:36:49 -0500, howldog <lifeisg…@hotmail.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:56:33 +0100, "Tron" <tronf…@frisurf.no> >wrote: >><Skinn…@hotmail.com> skrev i melding >>news:cu4u11t2av53k0p4vddqq12eakeiol91pl@4ax.com… >>> OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. >>> If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the tables >>> here would be SOOOOO turned! And before you finger pointers start in >>> on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin >>> courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a >>> month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out >>> deception! That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like >>> it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing >>> their out and out bias against men and towards women! >>> This is just another pathetic example of how one sided our legal >>> system is against men! (looks at his world atlas again wondering if >>> there really is anyplace where the world has not been turned upside >>> down!) >>What would this entail for those who maintain that men have control over >>their reproduction? >the usual sneering comments from the hardline man-hating feminists, >"haha! tough shit, keep it in your pants, get a blow up doll, you cant >get laid, you have a tiny dick" etc etc. >Thats the amount of sympathy you can expect.

Artificially inseminated woman sues for child support… and wins. If the courts are not going to take reasonable actions to protect private propterty perhaps that responsibility falls to us. The child belongs in the custody of chidren’s services and his or her (first and foremost the father) and then the  immediate family should have first say in adoption. This woman is a criminal, she is not entitled to the gaines of her crime or freedom afforded to the people who live under the law. If the courts are not going to take resonable actions to protect the right of property, that obligation falls to us.

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Boy, the kid is just gonna love reading about this when it grows up.

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<Skinn…@hotmail.com> skrev i melding news:cu4u11t2av53k0p4vddqq12eakeiol91pl@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK. This one is so wrong on so many levels that it just defies logic. > If a woman had been MADE pregnant against her desires…… the tables > here would be SOOOOO turned! And before you finger pointers start in > on me read the paragraph third from the last again…… The Friggin > courts awarded this bimbo (and I use that term correctly here) $800 a > month in child support for a child she conceived through out and out > deception! That’s not mysogony folks…. that’s just calling it like > it is! ANYBODY who wants to argue in this witche’s defense is showing > their out and out bias against men and towards women! > This is just another pathetic example of how one sided our legal > system is against men! (looks at his world atlas again wondering if > there really is anyplace where the world has not been turned upside > down!)

What would this entail for those who maintain that men have control over their reproduction? T

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:01:03 -0800, Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> wrote: >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/02/… >Court: Man Can Sue Over Surprise Pregnancy >By CARLA K. JOHNSON, – Associated Press Writer >Thursday, February 24, 2005 >A man who says his former lover deceived him by getting pregnant using >semen obtained through oral sex can sue for emotional distress

Question:

First of all go to the Families with Children From China Website www.fwcc.org  That will direct you to the apc mail list which is the apporpriate place to ask such questions. Secondly, have you selected an agency yet?   A decent agency should be able to answer such questions. Best of luck Linda Mother to the amazing Elizabeth Man Jie

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We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Visit the SPCA and get a dog. Woof.

Just don’t say " We want a hunting dog, that we will tie up in the backyard all day." Doug Thomas Board Member WDSPCA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything

You have not mentioned what health issues that you may have that you feel may hold you back. What you are asking for is other people to state what medical issues that they have that have either been held against them or not held against them in this very public forum. It seems unfair to expect that kind of disclosure from others. Doug Thomas

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything You have not mentioned what health issues that you may have that you feel may hold you back. What you are asking for is other people to state what medical issues that they have that have either been held against them or not held against them in this very public forum. It seems unfair to expect that kind of disclosure from others. Doug Thomas

OK,  I’ll try elsewhere. I thought people who adopt (and are members of a newsgroup called adoption) might have been in our situation and be able to comment. All the adoptive parents I have met are kind open and honest and do not mind sharing. So thanks anyways.

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OK,  I’ll try elsewhere. I thought people who adopt (and are members of a newsgroup called adoption) might have been in our situation and be able to comment. All the adoptive parents I have met are kind open and honest and do not mind sharing. So thanks anyways.

you’d think so, and there are quite a few very helpful people in here, but there are also others who, might not be as pleasant to deal with and have a different view of the issues.  always best to lurk for a while in any group before posting anything, get a feel for the general attitude. good luck

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything You have not mentioned what health issues that you may have that you feel may hold you back. What you are asking for is other people to state what medical issues that they have that have either been held against them or not held against them in this very public forum. It seems unfair to expect that kind of disclosure from others. Doug Thomas OK,  I’ll try elsewhere. I thought people who adopt (and are members of a newsgroup called adoption) might have been in our situation and be able to comment. All the adoptive parents I have met are kind open and honest and do not mind sharing. So thanks anyways.

Not all of us are adoptive parents. Some are birthparents, some are adoptees. There are a range of viewpoints here. It’s a discussion group, not a support group. But I’d strongly recommend that you try out Linda’s suggestions. Rupa

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you them of and Not all of us are adoptive parents. Some are birthparents, some are adoptees. There are a range of viewpoints here. It’s a discussion group, not a support group. But I’d strongly recommend that you try out Linda’s suggestions. Rupa

Thanks!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain! C’mon, it just wasn’t between his ears. J. Did I miss something? This is a serious question. We are wondering if anyone has adopted an if they had any medical issues they needed to explain. What did I do? Is this a serious group?

You didn’t lurk before you posted here, did you. — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain! C’mon, it just wasn’t between his ears. J. Did I miss something? This is a serious question. We are wondering if anyone has adopted an if they had any medical issues they needed to explain. What did I do? Is this a serious group? Apologies.

Well, I personally was making a joke about a long-ago poster, and it just kind of took off from there. It wasn’t about you.  I’m sorry, but I don’t have any information for you.

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Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything

I think there are some websites that have good information for people adopting from China. Maybe some of our a-parents will direct you to one of them. Rupa

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain! C’mon, it just wasn’t between his ears. J. Did I miss something? This is a serious question. We are wondering if anyone has adopted an if they had any medical issues they needed to explain. What did I do? Is this a serious group? Apologies.

Sorry, Mel.  You didn’t do anything but stumble into a den of smartasses. Lil’s reference was to a former poster who adopted from Russia and made a lousy reputation for himself here.  My remark was directed at his brain, not yours. You’ll probably have better luck getting information at someplace like about.com J.

Response:

Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything

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Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything

Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain!

We’ve had several posters without a brain, one from Nebraska claims to have fostered hundreds and adopted at least two.  Congenital brainlessness  is no bar to bar to adoption in some states. And I should be OK as it seems to help if your name starts with the letters  Ro. Robin

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Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain!

C’mon, it just wasn’t between his ears. J.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ooops hit return on last post Can anyone share any experiences with health related issue currently? We are looking at china adoption and we have some medical issues which we believe do not make us unable to care for a child. But we are wondering if anyone has stories or comments? Thanks alot I did search in this goup but did not find anything Well we once had a poster who was able to adopt from Russia, and he was born without a brain! C’mon, it just wasn’t between his ears. J.

Did I miss something? This is a serious question. We are wondering if anyone has adopted an if they had any medical issues they needed to explain. What did I do? Is this a serious group? Apologies.

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Question:

Wear these bracelets for the birth parents that gave all they had to give, for the adoptive parents who unconditionally love their child, and for the child who lives every day with questions and perhaps a lifetime of never knowing.   Oh puke.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We have silicone wristband similar to the Lance Armstrong LIVE STRONG wristbands. They are tri-colored in pink, yellow, and white-the true colors of adoption. The pink symbolizing birth parent; the yellow symbolizing adoptive parents; and the white symbolizing adoptees and adoption awareness. The uniting of these colors signify the birth parents, the adoptive parents, and adoption professionals all coming together for the good and the love of the child. The saying on the wristband is Adoption is Love. They will be available to ship in just a few weeks. Wear these bracelets for the birth parents that gave all they had to give, for the adoptive parents who unconditionally love their child, and for the child who lives every day with questions and perhaps a lifetime of never knowing. Adoption has many facets, but the one bond that seems common to all is, the emotion anyone feels who has in some way been touched by an adoption. We are trying to raise adoption awareness in our community and hope that you will join the cause too. Our family….United by Love. Hoping to adopt again in 2005! http:\www.my4everfamily.com

I hope you’re not relying in sales to fund your nect adoption, Jenna. J.

Response:

Wear these bracelets for the birth parents that gave all they had to give, for the adoptive parents who unconditionally love their child, and for the child who lives every day with questions and perhaps a lifetime of never knowing. Oh puke.

Yes, I must agree.  This definitely deserves a "BLARGH!" — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

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Hey – there’s no color symbolizing the facilitator!  Black, maybe? chickeyd

Response:

Hey – there’s no color symbolizing the facilitator!  Black, maybe? chickeyd

Green. . .the only color the flesh peddlers really care about. L.

Response:

We have silicone wristband similar to the Lance Armstrong LIVE STRONG wristbands. They are tri-colored in pink, yellow, and white-the true colors of adoption. The pink symbolizing birth parent; the yellow symbolizing adoptive parents; and the white symbolizing adoptees and adoption awareness. The uniting of these colors signify the birth parents, the adoptive parents, and adoption professionals all coming together for the good and the love of the child. The saying on the wristband is Adoption is Love. They will be available to ship in just a few weeks. Wear these bracelets for the birth parents that gave all they had to give, for the adoptive parents who unconditionally love their child, and for the child who lives every day with questions and perhaps a lifetime of never knowing. Adoption has many facets, but the one bond that seems common to all is, the emotion anyone feels who has in some way been touched by an adoption. We are trying to raise adoption awareness in our community and hope that you will join the cause too. Our family….United by Love. Hoping to adopt again in 2005! http:\www.my4everfamily.com

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Question:

Davina, Exactly.  Good agencies and lawyers always warn prospective adoptive parents if a placement is a legal risk, and many agencies and lawyers won’t even undertake such placements. The media is trying to cause people to panic, and politicians wave their hands around and threaten to enact unnecessary laws. It is ridiculous. L.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My letter to Mr. Farah: Mr. Farah, In your recent article about the Evan Scott Case, you rightly note the frightening prospect of the removal of children from their families by caprecious courts when you write: "Your children don’t belong to you. That’s the message. It doesn’t matter if you are a biological parent or an adoptive parent. The point is that the state has the power – all the power to decide the fate of your children. " For this reason, I am puzzled by the rest of your article. I can only assume that the very profound emotions stirred by this case (and the few others like it) inspired your writing.  I say this because the Evan Scott case (like the Baby Jessica case of more than a decade ago) is not about an actual adopion. Evan Scott was never adopted, and the people who wished to adopt him were aware from the beginning that this was an legal risk placement. (The term "legal risk placement" is a bit of professional adoption jargon that describes placing a child into a prospective adoptive home even though one or both biological parents have not yet had their legal rights terminated.) The Scotts knew about the risks involved and had even agreed to return the child to his mother if the biological father stepped forward to assert his rights. The father of this child did indeed step forward to assert his rights, and, sadly, the Scotts followed some very bad advice in attempting to hang onto the child despite the knowing that the adoption could not proceed as they had wished. While this may seem to be a cold, calculating, and legalistic view of the issue, I need to point out that the alternative to a "letter of the law" approach will be even more damaging to children and families. Severing ties between parents and children is a serious matter. If the laws that govern the termination of parental rights are not respected, all families are at risk. As a Christian conservative, you have surely heard about cases in which familes that do not follow certain social norms have been harassed by Child Protective Services or other government agencies and have lost their children (temporarily or permanently). Even though we may not like the father in this particular case (and, by the way, this was not a case of birthparents "changing their minds" about the adoption, but a case where their minds were already made up), terminating his rights without due process would set a horrible precident for parents (single and married) everywhere. Adoption is not threatened by this case: When the parental rights of both biological parents are legally terminated (either via a voluntary relinquishment or through a court order)adoptions can and do proceed with little or no legal risk. Sadly, adoptive parents who read your article may be given the impression that their children could be snatched from them at the whim of a birthparent or judge. This simply is not the case. Only adoptions which are legally defective are subject to challenge. In some cases, the the very laws that govern adoption may be defective, but these defects should be addressed by enacting by new and better laws instead of compromising the rights of parents. Respectfully, Lainie Petersen P.S. I have addressed many of the issues in this case in my online journal. The entry can be found at: http://www.livejournal.com/users/revlainiep/172729.html

Boy am I glad you did this!! To repeat others:  BRAVO! KL

Response:

My letter to Mr. Farah: Mr. Farah, In your recent article about the Evan Scott Case, you rightly note the frightening prospect of the removal of children from their families by caprecious courts when you write: "Your children don’t belong to you. That’s the message. It doesn’t matter if you are a biological parent or an adoptive parent. The point is that the state has the power – all the power to decide the fate of your children. " For this reason, I am puzzled by the rest of your article. I can only assume that the very profound emotions stirred by this case (and the few others like it) inspired your writing.  I say this because the Evan Scott case (like the Baby Jessica case of more than a decade ago) is not about an actual adopion. Evan Scott was never adopted, and the people who wished to adopt him were aware from the beginning that this was an legal risk placement. (The term "legal risk placement" is a bit of professional adoption jargon that describes placing a child into a prospective adoptive home even though one or both biological parents have not yet had their legal rights terminated.) The Scotts knew about the risks involved and had even agreed to return the child to his mother if the biological father stepped forward to assert his rights. The father of this child did indeed step forward to assert his rights, and, sadly, the Scotts followed some very bad advice in attempting to hang onto the child despite the knowing that the adoption could not proceed as they had wished. While this may seem to be a cold, calculating, and legalistic view of the issue, I need to point out that the alternative to a "letter of the law" approach will be even more damaging to children and families. Severing ties between parents and children is a serious matter. If the laws that govern the termination of parental rights are not respected, all families are at risk. As a Christian conservative, you have surely heard about cases in which familes that do not follow certain social norms have been harassed by Child Protective Services or other government agencies and have lost their children (temporarily or permanently). Even though we may not like the father in this particular case (and, by the way, this was not a case of birthparents "changing their minds" about the adoption, but a case where their minds were already made up), terminating his rights without due process would set a horrible precident for parents (single and married) everywhere. Adoption is not threatened by this case: When the parental rights of both biological parents are legally terminated (either via a voluntary relinquishment or through a court order)adoptions can and do proceed with little or no legal risk. Sadly, adoptive parents who read your article may be given the impression that their children could be snatched from them at the whim of a birthparent or judge. This simply is not the case. Only adoptions which are legally defective are subject to challenge. In some cases, the the very laws that govern adoption may be defective, but these defects should be addressed by enacting by new and better laws instead of compromising the rights of parents. Respectfully, Lainie Petersen P.S. I have addressed many of the issues in this case in my online journal. The entry can be found at: http://www.livejournal.com/users/revlainiep/172729.html

Response:

My letter to Mr. Farah: <snip Hopefully, this will shut him up and put a few adoptive parent’s minds to rest. Very powerful, Lainie. Kathy

it certainly helps put my mind (as a prospective future adoptive parent) at a lot more ease.  I don’t think i’ve read ahywhere else in the info on this case that it was a legal risk placement, and that they’d agreed to give the boy back if dad stepped forward.  I swear, it’s like the media is intentionally trying to scare people away from adoption. davina

Response:

Hopefully, this will shut him up and put a few adoptive parent’s minds to rest.

Very powerful, Lainie. Kathy

I agree.  Fabulous!

Response:

Bravo!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My letter to Mr. Farah: Mr. Farah, In your recent article about the Evan Scott Case, you rightly note the frightening prospect of the removal of children from their families by caprecious courts when you write: "Your children don’t belong to you. That’s the message. It doesn’t matter if you are a biological parent or an adoptive parent. The point is that the state has the power – all the power to decide the fate of your children. " For this reason, I am puzzled by the rest of your article. I can only assume that the very profound emotions stirred by this case (and the few others like it) inspired your writing.  I say this because the Evan Scott case (like the Baby Jessica case of more than a decade ago) is not about an actual adopion. Evan Scott was never adopted, and the people who wished to adopt him were aware from the beginning that this was an legal risk placement. (The term "legal risk placement" is a bit of professional adoption jargon that describes placing a child into a prospective adoptive home even though one or both biological parents have not yet had their legal rights terminated.) The Scotts knew about the risks involved and had even agreed to return the child to his mother if the biological father stepped forward to assert his rights. The father of this child did indeed step forward to assert his rights, and, sadly, the Scotts followed some very bad advice in attempting to hang onto the child despite the knowing that the adoption could not proceed as they had wished. While this may seem to be a cold, calculating, and legalistic view of the issue, I need to point out that the alternative to a "letter of the law" approach will be even more damaging to children and families. Severing ties between parents and children is a serious matter. If the laws that govern the termination of parental rights are not respected, all families are at risk. As a Christian conservative, you have surely heard about cases in which familes that do not follow certain social norms have been harassed by Child Protective Services or other government agencies and have lost their children (temporarily or permanently). Even though we may not like the father in this particular case (and, by the way, this was not a case of birthparents "changing their minds" about the adoption, but a case where their minds were already made up), terminating his rights without due process would set a horrible precident for parents (single and married) everywhere. Adoption is not threatened by this case: When the parental rights of both biological parents are legally terminated (either via a voluntary relinquishment or through a court order)adoptions can and do proceed with little or no legal risk. Sadly, adoptive parents who read your article may be given the impression that their children could be snatched from them at the whim of a birthparent or judge. This simply is not the case. Only adoptions which are legally defective are subject to challenge. In some cases, the the very laws that govern adoption may be defective, but these defects should be addressed by enacting by new and better laws instead of compromising the rights of parents. Respectfully, Lainie Petersen P.S. I have addressed many of the issues in this case in my online journal. The entry can be found at: http://www.livejournal.com/users/revlainiep/172729.html

Hopefully, this will shut him up and put a few adoptive parent’s minds to rest. Very powerful, Lainie. Kathy

Response:

Lainie, you ought to send HIM your article.

I second that.  I hope Lainie sends it out to most of the major newspapers too! http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42437 The threat to adoption

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Posted: January 19, 2005 Imagine this horror, if you can. You’re a 3

Question:

http://www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=2778777&nav=3w6oUwGv IL Couple Agreed To Return Child If Adoption Failed Court records say the couple who were ordered to give up the three-year-old boy they had raised from birth to his biological mother in Illinois previously agreed to return the boy if their adoption case failed. The records say the mother, Amanda Hopkins, agreed to allow Dawn and Gene Scott to adopt the boy if they would allow her frequent contact with him and agree to return him to her should their adoption case fail. The Scotts, who live in Florida, had been friends with Hopkins’ mother. The Florida Times-Union reported that a judge unsealed some records in the case Thursday in an apparent attempt to diffuse criticism of the ruling. A judge dismissed the Scotts’ adoption case in 2002, ruling that the boy’s biological father neither abandoned his son nor agreed to his adoption. The Scotts appealed unsuccessfully. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" —–Unknown

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This article certainly clears some things up for me about the court’s ruling. Thanks for posting.  :)

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