Question:
Your point makes it seem as if you are speaking of someone becoming pregnant, with the express intent of relinquishing the child. That would be surrogacy. Big difference between that, and someone becoming pregnant without planning and deciding adoption was their best option.
Thank you, but becarefull she will come back with you avoiding the question and just picking on words used. Sorry to tell her I am not Ms.Cleo and am not a mind reader, so unless she types what the hell she mean’s then she better be ready for what any one person thinks she is trying to say. Tracy
Response:
my point, exactly : )
Perhaps then the argument needs to go back a couple of steps? Would you want your daughter to be pregnant at all with a dubious pregnancy? On the other hand, if for some reason you had a grandchild on the way, it was too late for an abortion (or she didn’t want one), she couldn’t raise the kid, and you could not either…wouldn’t you be glad that there was the possibility of adoption for the baby? (Sounds academic and extreme — but in some places, the chances of such a kid getting adopted are slim.) Rupa
Response:
. I am talking about whether someone in such a case should voluntarily choose closed adoption. And, I am also not only talking about what is best for the child but also what is best for the biological mother.
Closed adoption is a very difficult situation for the relinquishing mother.. IMO.. Open adoption is also very difficult ..*for some*.. Who is it who has to go the other way and make sure the children is protected? the social work system in the case of children removed from their parents? I am talking about a system in which biological mothers voluntarily relinquishing their children, for countless years, had no power in their choice other than to give for adoption or not. And these women now have the power in this choice, and I believe it is in their own best interest and in the best interest of the babies they are giving birth to , to excercise that power and that choice, by some form (yes depending on the case and then circumstances how open etc etc) of open adoption.
What kind of expertise do these women have.. A woman around twenty years of age..( and I think this is average) is going to choose someone from the perspective of that age.. I have been on the adoption boards and I have learned that some potential aparents are chosen many times.. and some are never chosen.. New age religion seems to be a good bet.. Also, I think the time line is very important.. Pre birth relinquishments are something I am not in favor of.. but.. how do they choose for the OA? A ‘catch 22′ IMO. Jackie
Response:
Top posting: Just who is the REAL "Artai90"? Is he the person who wrote the post below? Or is he the person who wrote to me, in a semi-literate matter,
Or even semi-literate *manner*! Helen all lower case, etc., ranting about divorce? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is he one person or a committee? There is a trollish odour about this poster. Helen regarding the below. First of all, I would like to say that as a new person coming in and reading a backlog of posts, it does seem to me that the (unsurprising) tendency of people is to pick certain points of view based on their own life history and then agree/disagree with /interperet external things based on how well it jives with that history. Nowhere did I state, nor do I believe, that adoption is "bad" or will neccessarily have "bad results" and that being "kept" is good. In fact, if you look closely you will see that I said, I am not against the concept in general, that I can see why some people would choose to place children to be adopted, and in replying to someone considering placing her own child for adoption, I did not even urge her not to do so (which is pretty significant). Of course of course there are hundreds of millions of "biological" children (all children are biological : ) that is, in their original families, who are abused neglected etc etc. One would be an idiot to deny this fact, therefore, it can’t be terribly relevent, IMHO. However, there are a number of statistal surveys, studies, etc. which show that children placed for adoption have higher rates of incarceration, mental illness, and other problems. If these numbers are true, they do NOT implicate adoptive parents as bad or the cause of these problems. There can be many factors including a child’s natural feelings of abandonment in such a situation, and related feelings, or even such rudimentary possiblities as lack of infant-parent bonding (especially in the past many adoptions were delayed with infants being relinquished basically at birth and not turned over to the final parents for days weeks or months). Social stigma can have a hand too. The problem with statistical analysis is they can only document the past: things have changed rapidly in each decade and what was the norm in 1967 when I was placed is very much not the norm today, and I hope these kinds of problems have been greatly reduced (and I expect they have and ultimately will be shown to have been). Reduced yes, eliminated, no. To clarify. What seems to me as "logical" is that there are a number of feelings and issues, many of which cause some level of problems, that arise among all the triad in adoptions, that, obviously, cannot be present in families without the adoption issue. Who can deny that adoptive children very very often have sadness about and must come to terms with the situation? And of course, I am talking also about a situation in which one is assuming that the birth mother is not "pre-ordained" as likely to abuse or neglect her child, is not relinquishing because she fears this outcome, but that she has other issues going on. Issues that with more social, governmental, bio father, or family support, might NOT lead her to place a child. Or, that she may feel, with further thought, are issues that she can overcome in her own life her own way, making her own choices. What most adoptive parents that I have heard from never seem to address is this fundamental question: Would YOU want to place YOUR child for adoption? Not, could you ever in your wildest dreams imagine it, but would you WANT it? Would you think it was a "Good thing" for you or your child, fundamentally, in general? Would you WANT your daughter to place her child for adoption??? or, would you want her to raise her child (or abort, whatever) with your love and support? And if for some reason, you and she felt she couldn’t, wouldn’t you want to raise the child for her? And, the thing you said about the millions of children in original families being abused/etc. That just feeds into my point, which I stated, that I personally feel that most (or I could say many, or I could say, well, a lot) of parents are not good, or not the best, or are bad parents. And therefore, at the VERY LEAST, SOME adoptive parents have to be bad parents!!! It would seem quite ludicrous to deny this. Therefore, putting oneself in the position of considering giving away your child, to an unknown stranger, on the assumption that the child will have a better life (perhaps financially, or because it will be a two parent household, or not have a stigma of an unwed mother, or for many reasons that are not the same as "I am afraid I personally may beat my child or something as bad because of my personal issues"), it is a FAULTY assumption that your child WILL have a better life. And, in fact, it is a statistically 100% guaranteed Possibility (not certainty) that your child may not only NOT have a better life, but have a worse life, or even a BAD life, than if you had raised it. Therefore, my statement, that I personally would NEVER take this risk. Knowing that I would never know and have a lifetime of regret and fear about it. Therefore, my recomendation, to anyone who for whatever reason feels they must give a child for adoption, that they at least choose some form of open adoption, that allows them some choice of the parents, some impact. And hopefully some contact so they can see what goes on in that childs life, and in a worst case scenario, take action to protect it. (ie notify DSS if you discover abuse etc.) In a traditional closed adoption you take the most precious fragile thing you have ever produced or "owned" and give it away completely in the dark with no power and no information– EVER. I am very very much against this kind of system. I also believe that most adoptive parents, if they could look into their hearts and honestly think in terms of what if THEY were on the other side (rather than what is threatening to them as adoptive parents) would have to agree that some form of open adoption is the only way to go. re: your << Some people think "adoption" is putting children at risk, as if being "kept" eliminates the risk. Simply false. Giving your child for adoption, YOUR child, not children in an abstract sense, but the child in YOUR BELLY or your arms, whom you have this life-altering decision to make for, is putting your child at risk. Simply false? If I give my CAT to the humane society for adoption I am putting my cat at risk. The new "parents" even if they lovingly "chose" my cat, could just as well get tired of it, not like its habits, or find a new cat (or "miraculously" get pregnant with a new baby which happens fairly often) and neglect, abuse, or just not love it or allow it to feel unloved. If I sell my 100 year old house on the open market not knowing if the new buyer will just tear it down to build a mini-mansion on the lot, or gut the inside to make it all plasticy and new, I am putting my house at risk. If I have a 100 acre wood that I need to sell but wish to keep as a woods and not a strip mall, and I sell it (give it away for adoption) on the open market with no strings attached, allowing my realtor to select the buyer on whatever basis SHE chooses (in this case the highest bidder, in another case a social worker’s criteria and not necc. my own of what makes a good parent) I am putting those trees at risk. This is simply true. And if the adoption process is not at least a BIT more likely, in the case where parents simply don’t like their children (which happens in "original families" too) to lead to greater dissapointment and more unhappiness for the child, they why do SO many people, after finding they are infertile (and often spending thousands and going through agony to try to reverse the situation) cry and express their anguish when they consider making the adoption "choice." If adoption, were not a second choice, adoptive parents would never try to get pregnant. Again, I am talking about healthy white infant adoption. I myself, who have one biological child, have made the firm CHOICE never to become pregnant or never to give birth to another child from my own body, because I have made the Choice that someday I will give a home to a child who needs a home. A child who might not get one if I am not there. That is a choice. Being infertile, and aguishing over it, and then, often reluctantly, adopting a baby that would look as much as possible like your "own" baby, that is not a choice in the same sense. I am NOT saying that parents in the above situation WILL be bad, or won’t love their children. Most will be great. Maybe even a higher percentage will be great than in "biological" families, because it is such an effort. But some will be bad. Some will be very bad. It is a statistical certainty in any case. I do not know your situation but I have read a few posts from you and it seems clear that your child/children have some problems, that may be the result of bad treatment in their original families, and/or, issues from the adoption process (abandonment, etc), and that you are
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Response:
See what I mean – he is (literally) reverting to type! Helen
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Um– didn’t you read the rest of what i wrote, where i listed several variables and didn’t "blame" adoption alone? Do you have an answer to the question of whether you would feel adoption is the Best answer to your own pregnancy or that of your daugter? peace << Don’t forget inherited problems, such as bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. Or physical problems caused by drug/alcohol use by the biological mother during pregnancy. None of which have anything to do with adoption. Also, how many of those studies can you cite show that these problems are directly related to adoption? How many of these incarcerated adults were adopted out of foster care? How many were abused prior to foster care? How many were adopted as infants? How many were step-parent adoptions? How many were interfamily adoptions? I’d like to see a study that breaks it down. IMO, I think it is false logic to conclude that adoption alone is the cause of these problems without considering the variables.
Response:
See – here he starts badly and ‘improves’. Artai90, if you are going to choose a persona, would you at least have the intelligence to stay in character? Helen
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << Would YOU want to place YOUR child for adoption? I think it would depend on the situation I found myself in. I did at one time check out if I could donate egg’s so a woman could have a child you did not quote the rest where i said, not could you ever imagine it but would you think it was the best idea, something to be desired and wished for. eggs and living beings are a bit different, or are you against birth control? I would donate sperm or eggs (if donating eggs were not so physically painful) in the same way i might donate an organ or donate blood, and i would view it much differently than "donating" a baby. Sperm and egg donation may be different, a bigger deal, than blood or organ donation, but they are also different than donating / giving away a human being. And by "giving away" I mean * see below. << Would you WANT your daughter to place her child for adoption??? I would want to make sure this was exactly what the daughter wanted, and support her decision. She would have my love and support no matter what she decided. again, the "want" in capitals means just that: not, if she wanted to very much would you support it, but would you wish it to happen that she would want it. Would this be true: "I hope someday my daugher gets pregnant and gives the child up for adoption because that way some unknown couple could have a child" (irrespective that it might affect my daugher negatively or that the unknown couple might not have turned out to be so fabulous after all) << In a traditional closed adoption you take the most precious fragile thing you have ever produced or "owned" and give it away Pretty strong word’s, since when is a baby something to "OWN"? I thought slavery ( which was owning of a person) ended a long time ago. J or E can you please clear this up for me, slavery has ended right? is it not possible to have an intellectual conversation without deliberately obfuscating? the quotes around "own" were meant to convey just what you are saying. Choose a word that you would prefer to convey *"that which is currently held in your physical custody/possesion and which you have the legal right to distribute in some way". Is that better? You are not addressing the question, only the language being used. if they could look into their hearts and honestly think in terms of what if THEY were on the other side (rather than what is threatening to them as adoptive parents) Making some big assumption’s here, and throwing a whole group into one, can’t speak for all adoptive parents. Only thing I feel threatened by is my son being hurt every time he walks out the door to go play. would have to agree that some form of open adoption is the only way to go. Again this would have to depend on the situation on a case by case situation. Like every pregnancy isn’t the same, every adoption is not. I do agree some form of open adoption is a benefit to the children, but if it isn’t in the best intrests of the children then you have to go the other way to make sure the children are protected. I am not sure what you are saying. This thread was begun because a woman, who is pregnant, and is considering relinquishing her child for adoption, asked a question which basically was a reference to risks for the child in an adoptive situation. And what I have been stressing, is that I am discussing voluntary adoption of healthy infants. What you seem to be doing, is purposefully avoiding the thought process which might lead to the conclusion, that if you personally became pregnant you would prefer not to give your child for adoption, or, that giving a child for a closed adoption does represent at least some level of risk. I am not talking about, repeat repeat , children who have been abused and are removed by the system and placed with adoptive parents. I am not talking about women who have a history of mental illness or substance abuse and fear they will harm their child. I am talking about an unknown person, presumably a "typical" American woman or teenager, presumably with adequate mental health and intelligence making an incredibly important life choice. I am talking about whether someone in such a case should voluntarily choose closed adoption. And, I am also not only talking about what is best for the child but also what is best for the biological mother. Who is it who has to go the other way and make sure the children is protected? the social work system in the case of children removed from their parents? I am talking about a system in which biological mothers voluntarily relinquishing their children, for countless years, had no power in their choice other than to give for adoption or not. And these women now have the power in this choice, and I believe it is in their own best interest and in the best interest of the babies they are giving birth to , to excercise that power and that choice, by some form (yes depending on the case and then circumstances how open etc etc) of open adoption.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, there are a number of statistal surveys, studies, etc. which show that children placed for adoption have higher rates of incarceration, mental illness, and other problems. If these numbers are true, they do NOT implicate adoptive parents as bad or the cause of these problems. There can be many factors including a child’s natural feelings of abandonment in such a situation, and related feelings, or even such rudimentary possiblities as lack of infant-parent bonding (especially in the past many adoptions were delayed with infants being relinquished basically at birth and not turned over to the final parents for days weeks or months). Social stigma can have a hand too. Don’t forget inherited problems, such as bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. Or physical problems caused by drug/alcohol use by the biological mother during pregnancy. None of which have anything to do with adoption. Also, how many of those studies can you cite show that these problems are directly related to adoption? How many of these incarcerated adults were adopted out of foster care? How many were abused prior to foster care? How many were adopted as infants? How many were step-parent adoptions? How many were interfamily adoptions? I’d like to see a study that breaks it down. IMO, I think it is false logic to conclude that adoption alone is the cause of these problems without considering the variables.
ITA – excellent reply. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Top posting: Just who is the REAL "Artai90"? Is he the person who wrote the post below? Or is he the person who wrote to me, in a semi-literate matter, all lower case, etc., ranting about divorce? Is he one person or a committee? There is a trollish odour about this poster. Helen
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – regarding the below. First of all, I would like to say that as a new person coming in and reading a backlog of posts, it does seem to me that the (unsurprising) tendency of people is to pick certain points of view based on their own life history and then agree/disagree with /interperet external things based on how well it jives with that history. Nowhere did I state, nor do I believe, that adoption is "bad" or will neccessarily have "bad results" and that being "kept" is good. In fact, if you look closely you will see that I said, I am not against the concept in general, that I can see why some people would choose to place children to be adopted, and in replying to someone considering placing her own child for adoption, I did not even urge her not to do so (which is pretty significant). Of course of course there are hundreds of millions of "biological" children (all children are biological : ) that is, in their original families, who are abused neglected etc etc. One would be an idiot to deny this fact, therefore, it can’t be terribly relevent, IMHO. However, there are a number of statistal surveys, studies, etc. which show that children placed for adoption have higher rates of incarceration, mental illness, and other problems. If these numbers are true, they do NOT implicate adoptive parents as bad or the cause of these problems. There can be many factors including a child’s natural feelings of abandonment in such a situation, and related feelings, or even such rudimentary possiblities as lack of infant-parent bonding (especially in the past many adoptions were delayed with infants being relinquished basically at birth and not turned over to the final parents for days weeks or months). Social stigma can have a hand too. The problem with statistical analysis is they can only document the past: things have changed rapidly in each decade and what was the norm in 1967 when I was placed is very much not the norm today, and I hope these kinds of problems have been greatly reduced (and I expect they have and ultimately will be shown to have been). Reduced yes, eliminated, no. To clarify. What seems to me as "logical" is that there are a number of feelings and issues, many of which cause some level of problems, that arise among all the triad in adoptions, that, obviously, cannot be present in families without the adoption issue. Who can deny that adoptive children very very often have sadness about and must come to terms with the situation? And of course, I am talking also about a situation in which one is assuming that the birth mother is not "pre-ordained" as likely to abuse or neglect her child, is not relinquishing because she fears this outcome, but that she has other issues going on. Issues that with more social, governmental, bio father, or family support, might NOT lead her to place a child. Or, that she may feel, with further thought, are issues that she can overcome in her own life her own way, making her own choices. What most adoptive parents that I have heard from never seem to address is this fundamental question: Would YOU want to place YOUR child for adoption? Not, could you ever in your wildest dreams imagine it, but would you WANT it? Would you think it was a "Good thing" for you or your child, fundamentally, in general? Would you WANT your daughter to place her child for adoption??? or, would you want her to raise her child (or abort, whatever) with your love and support? And if for some reason, you and she felt she couldn’t, wouldn’t you want to raise the child for her? And, the thing you said about the millions of children in original families being abused/etc. That just feeds into my point, which I stated, that I personally feel that most (or I could say many, or I could say, well, a lot) of parents are not good, or not the best, or are bad parents. And therefore, at the VERY LEAST, SOME adoptive parents have to be bad parents!!! It would seem quite ludicrous to deny this. Therefore, putting oneself in the position of considering giving away your child, to an unknown stranger, on the assumption that the child will have a better life (perhaps financially, or because it will be a two parent household, or not have a stigma of an unwed mother, or for many reasons that are not the same as "I am afraid I personally may beat my child or something as bad because of my personal issues"), it is a FAULTY assumption that your child WILL have a better life. And, in fact, it is a statistically 100% guaranteed Possibility (not certainty) that your child may not only NOT have a better life, but have a worse life, or even a BAD life, than if you had raised it. Therefore, my statement, that I personally would NEVER take this risk. Knowing that I would never know and have a lifetime of regret and fear about it. Therefore, my recomendation, to anyone who for whatever reason feels they must give a child for adoption, that they at least choose some form of open adoption, that allows them some choice of the parents, some impact. And hopefully some contact so they can see what goes on in that childs life, and in a worst case scenario, take action to protect it. (ie notify DSS if you discover abuse etc.) In a traditional closed adoption you take the most precious fragile thing you have ever produced or "owned" and give it away completely in the dark with no power and no information– EVER. I am very very much against this kind of system. I also believe that most adoptive parents, if they could look into their hearts and honestly think in terms of what if THEY were on the other side (rather than what is threatening to them as adoptive parents) would have to agree that some form of open adoption is the only way to go. re: your << Some people think "adoption" is putting children at risk, as if being "kept" eliminates the risk. Simply false. Giving your child for adoption, YOUR child, not children in an abstract sense, but the child in YOUR BELLY or your arms, whom you have this life-altering decision to make for, is putting your child at risk. Simply false? If I give my CAT to the humane society for adoption I am putting my cat at risk. The new "parents" even if they lovingly "chose" my cat, could just as well get tired of it, not like its habits, or find a new cat (or "miraculously" get pregnant with a new baby which happens fairly often) and neglect, abuse, or just not love it or allow it to feel unloved. If I sell my 100 year old house on the open market not knowing if the new buyer will just tear it down to build a mini-mansion on the lot, or gut the inside to make it all plasticy and new, I am putting my house at risk. If I have a 100 acre wood that I need to sell but wish to keep as a woods and not a strip mall, and I sell it (give it away for adoption) on the open market with no strings attached, allowing my realtor to select the buyer on whatever basis SHE chooses (in this case the highest bidder, in another case a social worker’s criteria and not necc. my own of what makes a good parent) I am putting those trees at risk. This is simply true. And if the adoption process is not at least a BIT more likely, in the case where parents simply don’t like their children (which happens in "original families" too) to lead to greater dissapointment and more unhappiness for the child, they why do SO many people, after finding they are infertile (and often spending thousands and going through agony to try to reverse the situation) cry and express their anguish when they consider making the adoption "choice." If adoption, were not a second choice, adoptive parents would never try to get pregnant. Again, I am talking about healthy white infant adoption. I myself, who have one biological child, have made the firm CHOICE never to become pregnant or never to give birth to another child from my own body, because I have made the Choice that someday I will give a home to a child who needs a home. A child who might not get one if I am not there. That is a choice. Being infertile, and aguishing over it, and then, often reluctantly, adopting a baby that would look as much as possible like your "own" baby, that is not a choice in the same sense. I am NOT saying that parents in the above situation WILL be bad, or won’t love their children. Most will be great. Maybe even a higher percentage will be great than in "biological" families, because it is such an effort. But some will be bad. Some will be very bad. It is a statistical certainty in any case. I do not know your situation but I have read a few posts from you and it seems clear that your child/children have some problems, that may be the result of bad treatment in their original families, and/or, issues from the adoption process (abandonment, etc), and that you are probably very loving and good parent and no doubt better than the "original" ones. Stating that there is a problem with a system, is not implicating all the individuals within a system nor is it painting the system with a broad brush as unworkable and needing to be thrown out completely. Does this clarification make sense to you? respectfully bbe << And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the
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again, the "want" in capitals means just that: not, if she wanted to very much would you support it, but would you wish it to happen that she would want it. Would this be true: "I hope someday my daugher gets pregnant and gives the child up for adoption because that way some unknown couple could have a child" (irrespective that it might affect my daugher negatively or that the unknown couple might not have turned out to be so fabulous after all)
Well who the hell in their right mind would want that?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, now i understand a bit better where you are coming from. i agree in general with all you say below. I do not believe in pathologizing adoptees. I had a horrible experience, and i do not blame that experience on adoption. I blame it on having bad parents. they could just as easily have been my bio parents, and the general experience would have been the same. However, the adoption did complicate/increase some of the problems. And, I do not feel my experience was terrribly unique. I also believe there are, literally, millions, of great loving adoptive parents and happy adoptees. And, I feel adoption is tremdously enormously better than foster care in most cases and in all cases where there is a desire to relinquish or serious abuse or where the foster care stay would be lengthy (ie more than a year). but that was not really the subject of the discussion, or rather, perhaps, not my point. which was predominantly related to not whether but, how. and yes, wether, in the sense that i do support greater social/governmental/family support of bioparents where possible/in general. there will always be children who should be adopted. the question, for me is, how many, and how. and why. ps what is YMMV ?
Your mileage may vary (ie: your experience may be different). :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -thanks for clarifying peace be
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my point, exactly : ) again, the "want" in capitals means just that: not, if she wanted to very much would you support it, but would you wish it to happen that she would want it. Would this be true: "I hope someday my daugher gets pregnant and gives the child up for adoption because that way some unknown couple could have a child" (irrespective that it might affect my daugher negatively or that the unknown couple might not have turned out to be so fabulous after all)
Well who the hell in their right mind would want that?
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my point, exactly : )
Well then we’re in agreement. I don’t think you’ll find one person (nutty lurkers aside) in this NG who would advocate that. :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – again, the "want" in capitals means just that: not, if she wanted to very much would you support it, but would you wish it to happen that she would want it. Would this be true: "I hope someday my daugher gets pregnant and gives the child up for adoption because that way some unknown couple could have a child" (irrespective that it might affect my daugher negatively or that the unknown couple might not have turned out to be so fabulous after all) Well who the hell in their right mind would want that?
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my point, exactly : )
Your point makes it seem as if you are speaking of someone becoming pregnant, with the express intent of relinquishing the child. That would be surrogacy. Big difference between that, and someone becoming pregnant without planning and deciding adoption was their best option. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – again, the "want" in capitals means just that: not, if she wanted to very much would you support it, but would you wish it to happen that she would want it. Would this be true: "I hope someday my daugher gets pregnant and gives the child up for adoption because that way some unknown couple could have a child" (irrespective that it might affect my daugher negatively or that the unknown couple might not have turned out to be so fabulous after all) Well who the hell in their right mind would want that?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In responce to the woman who is pregnant and considering adoption, I just wanted to say that the women who replied that they cherished their children, not second choice, etc. are undoubtably all sincere and honest but they cannot represent the gamut of adoptive parents. Those who do regard their adoptive children as "second" or worse are not going to be on this forum, most likely. I was an adoptee who was told the "story" of my adoption which included the "chosen" "more special" content, but unconsciously, my parents did regard me as second best and it showed through my entire childhood and even adult life. I feel that I was a "bad match" for my parents, in a way that has really got me thinking about the whole nature/nurture question more than I had before. I have met my birth parents and I am much more like them, in intellectual ability, interest-wise, point of view, etc. Not that I am totally like them just much more than I am like my adoptive parents. And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the desired product" let the buyer beware blah blah. They could not conceptualize this of course and would deny it if discussed. But my analysis of the events of my childhood leads inevitably to this conclusion. This is I feel one of the major pitfalls of adoption. A parent who is dissapointed in their child, when that child is adopted, might be and become much more dissapointed than in a traditional "" family. It is a logical conclusion.
I don’t think so. I cannot agree with your premise that adopted children are more likely to have parents who are "disappointed" in them - or that the degree of "disappointment" is somehow more severe in adoptive families than biological ones. I don’t think it’s a logical conclusion at all - perhaps simply an emotional one. I am not against the concept of adoption, but I feel it does too often have bad results. [I am refering to infant adoption of healthy white babies. I fully support international adoption and adoption of "hard to place" older, bi-racial, etc. children and plan to adopt one myself someday.]
Excellent. If you need any help with starting the "hard to place" older child adoption process, feel free to email me. Been there… done that… twice. But as to your comment that infant adoption "too often" has bad results… come back to me after reviewing the hundreds (thousands) of profiles of kept biological children who suffered neglect and physical abuse. I think you might be seeing some things from a slightly different perspective. One child not served well by their adoptive parents - is one child too many. One child not served well by their biological parents - is one child too many. Some people think "adoption" is putting children at risk, as if being "kept" eliminates the risk. Simply false. < snip peace be
To you as well. Dad
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In responce to the woman who is pregnant and considering adoption, I just wanted to say that the women who replied that they cherished their children, not second choice, etc. are undoubtably all sincere and honest but they cannot represent the gamut of adoptive parents. Those who do regard their adoptive children as "second" or worse are not going to be on this forum, most likely. I was an adoptee who was told the "story" of my adoption which included the "chosen" "more special" content, but unconsciously, my parents did regard me as second best and it showed through my entire childhood and even adult life. I feel that I was a "bad match" for my parents, in a way that has really got me thinking about the whole nature/nurture question more than I had before. I have met my birth parents and I am much more like them, in intellectual ability, interest-wise, point of view, etc. Not that I am totally like them just much more than I am like my adoptive parents. And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the desired product" let the buyer beware blah blah. They could not conceptualize this of course and would deny it if discussed. But my analysis of the events of my childhood leads inevitably to this conclusion. This is I feel one of the major pitfalls of adoption. A parent who is dissapointed in their child, when that child is adopted, might be and become much more dissapointed than in a traditional "" family. It is a logical conclusion.
Just as you are saying the adoptive parents on this board might not reflect the general population, I must say that your life does not reflect the general population. I know hundreds of adoptive parents, and adoptees. The majority of adoptees I know were NOT second choice, second best, etc. I was my parents 2nd child, their middle actually. Both of my brothers are their biological children. We are equal, and have been since the day we were all born (or in my case, adopted at 2 months of age). I am more like my father than either of his bio sons could ever be. I am also closer to him then they will ever be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am not against the concept of adoption, but I feel it does too often have bad results. [I am refering to infant adoption of healthy white babies. I fully support international adoption and adoption of "hard to place" older, bi-racial, etc. children and plan to adopt one myself someday.] I also feel that many, many parents are bad parents, in general, and therefore many many adoptive parents are bad parents too just as a general principle, without even adding the potential pitfalls of the adoption process. For these reasons I would never give a child for adoption but would not hesitate to abort. In fact, I am not pro-choice, I am pro-abortion. I recognize there are situations in which one does not have an abortion and then has second thoughts about their ability to parent, and there are those who would not have an abortion. For these people, I would recommend only ONLY ONLY open adoption of some form or another. I think you should learn as much as possible about the potential parents and excercise as much choice in the selection of who will raise your child as possible, including finding an apropriate agency or situation which will grant you that choice if neccessary. I also recommend that you try to find adoptive parents who seem "like" you as much as possible in personality, intelligence, etc. And, go with your gut. If some couple makes you uncomfortable even if they seem good on paper, maybe you should continue looking rather than accept the first placement an agency offers. You should be the person with the power; there are more potential adoptive parents than there are birth parents, as statistically illogical as that sounds.
It goes without saying that someone who chooses adoption should make as many of the choices as they can, and feel they have to. Of course, they should be the one to choose the family their child will be raised in. I wish you luck and the self confidence to support yourself in the decision you make- that it will be the "right" decision however hard either way may be. And remember that it is possible to see your child as an adult and develop a relationship in that way, too.
If somebody can raise their child, then by all means they should. However, adoption is not a horrible fate for children, including healthy white, or other race, infants. The choice should be made based on what is best for the child, not the birth or adoptive parents. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -peace be
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Um– didn’t you read the rest of what i wrote, where i listed several variables and didn’t "blame" adoption alone? Do you have an answer to the question of whether you would feel adoption is the Best answer to your own pregnancy or that of your daugter? peace
I did, but I wanted to add to it, simply because there are some people who pathologize adoptees and would like to blame their problems on adoption alone. As to your question, I don’t have a daughter, but I hope I would support her in making the choice that was best for her (making it HER decision, not mine). As an adoptee, and speaking only for myself, I had a very good experience. Whatever issues I had growing up don’t seem to spring from being adopted. Of course, ideally, children should remain with their bioparents, but IMO, if the parent is unwilling or unable to parent, I see adoption (rather than foster care, or even guardianship) as a very loving choice. YMMV
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well, now i understand a bit better where you are coming from. i agree in general with all you say below. I do not believe in pathologizing adoptees. I had a horrible experience, and i do not blame that experience on adoption. I blame it on having bad parents. they could just as easily have been my bio parents, and the general experience would have been the same. However, the adoption did complicate/increase some of the problems. And, I do not feel my experience was terrribly unique. I also believe there are, literally, millions, of great loving adoptive parents and happy adoptees. And, I feel adoption is tremdously enormously better than foster care in most cases and in all cases where there is a desire to relinquish or serious abuse or where the foster care stay would be lengthy (ie more than a year). but that was not really the subject of the discussion, or rather, perhaps, not my point. which was predominantly related to not whether but, how. and yes, wether, in the sense that i do support greater social/governmental/family support of bioparents where possible/in general. there will always be children who should be adopted. the question, for me is, how many, and how. and why. ps what is YMMV ? thanks for clarifying peace be << simply because there are some people who pathologize adoptees and would like to blame their problems on adoption alone. As to your question, I don’t have a daughter, but I hope I would support her in making the choice that was best for her (making it HER decision, not mine). As an adoptee, and speaking only for myself, I had a very good experience. Whatever issues I had growing up don’t seem to spring from being adopted. Of course, ideally, children should remain with their bioparents, but IMO, if the parent is unwilling or unable to parent, I see adoption (rather than foster care, or even guardianship) as a very loving choice. YMMV
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<< Would YOU want to place YOUR child for adoption? I think it would depend on the situation I found myself in. I did at one time check out if I could donate egg’s so a woman could have a child you did not quote the rest where i said, not could you ever imagine it but would you think it was the best idea, something to be desired and wished for. eggs and living beings are a bit different, or are you against birth control? I would donate sperm or eggs (if donating eggs were not so physically painful) in the same way i might donate an organ or donate blood, and i would view it much differently than "donating" a baby. Sperm and egg donation may be different, a bigger deal, than blood or organ donation, but they are also different than donating / giving away a human being. And by "giving away" I mean * see below. << Would you WANT your daughter to place her child for adoption??? I would want to make sure this was exactly what the daughter wanted, and support her decision. She would have my love and support no matter what she decided. again, the "want" in capitals means just that: not, if she wanted to very much would you support it, but would you wish it to happen that she would want it. Would this be true: "I hope someday my daugher gets pregnant and gives the child up for adoption because that way some unknown couple could have a child" (irrespective that it might affect my daugher negatively or that the unknown couple might not have turned out to be so fabulous after all) << In a traditional closed adoption you take the most precious fragile thing you have ever produced or "owned" and give it away
Pretty strong word’s, since when is a baby something to "OWN"? I thought slavery ( which was owning of a person) ended a long time ago. J or E can you please clear this up for me, slavery has ended right? is it not possible to have an intellectual conversation without deliberately obfuscating? the quotes around "own" were meant to convey just what you are saying. Choose a word that you would prefer to convey *"that which is currently held in your physical custody/possesion and which you have the legal right to distribute in some way". Is that better? You are not addressing the question, only the language being used. if they could look into their hearts and honestly think in terms of what if THEY were on the other side (rather than what is threatening to them as adoptive parents)
Making some big assumption’s here, and throwing a whole group into one, can’t speak for all adoptive parents. Only thing I feel threatened by is my son being hurt every time he walks out the door to go play. would have to agree that some form of open adoption is the only way to go.
Again this would have to depend on the situation on a case by case situation. Like every pregnancy isn’t the same, every adoption is not. I do agree some form of open adoption is a benefit to the children, but if it isn’t in the best intrests of the children then you have to go the other way to make sure the children are protected. I am not sure what you are saying. This thread was begun because a woman, who is pregnant, and is considering relinquishing her child for adoption, asked a question which basically was a reference to risks for the child in an adoptive situation. And what I have been stressing, is that I am discussing voluntary adoption of healthy infants. What you seem to be doing, is purposefully avoiding the thought process which might lead to the conclusion, that if you personally became pregnant you would prefer not to give your child for adoption, or, that giving a child for a closed adoption does represent at least some level of risk. I am not talking about, repeat repeat , children who have been abused and are removed by the system and placed with adoptive parents. I am not talking about women who have a history of mental illness or substance abuse and fear they will harm their child. I am talking about an unknown person, presumably a "typical" American woman or teenager, presumably with adequate mental health and intelligence making an incredibly important life choice. I am talking about whether someone in such a case should voluntarily choose closed adoption. And, I am also not only talking about what is best for the child but also what is best for the biological mother. Who is it who has to go the other way and make sure the children is protected? the social work system in the case of children removed from their parents? I am talking about a system in which biological mothers voluntarily relinquishing their children, for countless years, had no power in their choice other than to give for adoption or not. And these women now have the power in this choice, and I believe it is in their own best interest and in the best interest of the babies they are giving birth to , to excercise that power and that choice, by some form (yes depending on the case and then circumstances how open etc etc) of open adoption.
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Would YOU want to place YOUR child for adoption?
I think it would depend on the situation I found myself in. I did at one time check out if I could donate egg’s so a woman could have a child, but was told I would have to prove that I had living children and they were healthy. Would you WANT your daughter to place her child for adoption???
I would want to make sure this was exactly what the daughter wanted, and support her decision. She would have my love and support no matter what she decided. And if for some reason, you and she felt she couldn’t, wouldn’t you want to raise the child for her?
If that was what the daughter wanted, and it was in the best intrest of child, then yes I would step up to the plate and raise the child. In a traditional closed adoption you take the most precious fragile thing you have ever produced or "owned" and give it away
Pretty strong word’s, since when is a baby something to "OWN"? I thought slavery ( which was owning of a person) ended a long time ago. J or E can you please clear this up for me, slavery has ended right? if they could look into their hearts and honestly think in terms of what if THEY were on the other side (rather than what is threatening to them as adoptive parents)
Making some big assumption’s here, and throwing a whole group into one, can’t speak for all adoptive parents. Only thing I feel threatened by is my son being hurt every time he walks out the door to go play. would have to agree that some form of open adoption is the only way to go.
Again this would have to depend on the situation on a case by case situation. Like every pregnancy isn’t the same, every adoption is not. I do agree some form of open adoption is a benefit to the children, but if it isn’t in the best intrests of the children then you have to go the other way to make sure the children are protected. Tracy
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Um– didn’t you read the rest of what i wrote, where i listed several variables and didn’t "blame" adoption alone? Do you have an answer to the question of whether you would feel adoption is the Best answer to your own pregnancy or that of your daugter? peace << Don’t forget inherited problems, such as bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. Or physical problems caused by drug/alcohol use by the biological mother during pregnancy. None of which have anything to do with adoption. Also, how many of those studies can you cite show that these problems are directly related to adoption? How many of these incarcerated adults were adopted out of foster care? How many were abused prior to foster care? How many were adopted as infants? How many were step-parent adoptions? How many were interfamily adoptions? I’d like to see a study that breaks it down. IMO, I think it is false logic to conclude that adoption alone is the cause of these problems without considering the variables.
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However, there are a number of statistal surveys, studies, etc. which show that children placed for adoption have higher rates of incarceration, mental illness, and other problems. If these numbers are true, they do NOT implicate adoptive parents as bad or the cause of these problems. There can be many factors including a child’s natural feelings of abandonment in such a situation, and related feelings, or even such rudimentary possiblities as lack of infant-parent bonding (especially in the past many adoptions were delayed with infants being relinquished basically at birth and not turned over to the final parents for days weeks or months). Social stigma can have a hand too.
Don’t forget inherited problems, such as bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. Or physical problems caused by drug/alcohol use by the biological mother during pregnancy. None of which have anything to do with adoption. Also, how many of those studies can you cite show that these problems are directly related to adoption? How many of these incarcerated adults were adopted out of foster care? How many were abused prior to foster care? How many were adopted as infants? How many were step-parent adoptions? How many were interfamily adoptions? I’d like to see a study that breaks it down. IMO, I think it is false logic to conclude that adoption alone is the cause of these problems without considering the variables.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In responce to the woman who is pregnant and considering adoption, I just wanted to say that the women who replied that they cherished their children, not second choice, etc. are undoubtably all sincere and honest but they cannot represent the gamut of adoptive parents. Those who do regard their adoptive children as "second" or worse are not going to be on this forum, most likely. I was an adoptee who was told the "story" of my adoption which included the "chosen" "more special" content, but unconsciously, my parents did regard me as second best and it showed through my entire childhood and even adult life. I feel that I was a "bad match" for my parents, in a way that has really got me thinking about the whole nature/nurture question more than I had before. I have met my birth parents and I am much more like them, in intellectual ability, interest-wise, point of view, etc. Not that I am totally like them just much more than I am like my adoptive parents. And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the desired product" let the buyer beware blah blah. They could not conceptualize this of course and would deny it if discussed. But my analysis of the events of my childhood leads inevitably to this conclusion. This is I feel one of the major pitfalls of adoption. A parent who is dissapointed in their child, when that child is adopted, might be and become much more dissapointed than in a traditional "" family. It is a logical conclusion. I don’t think so. I cannot agree with your premise that adopted children are more likely to have parents who are "disappointed" in them - or that the degree of "disappointment" is somehow more severe in adoptive families than biological ones. I don’t think it’s a logical conclusion at all - perhaps simply an emotional one. I am not against the concept of adoption, but I feel it does too often have bad results. [I am refering to infant adoption of healthy white babies. I fully support international adoption and adoption of "hard to place" older, bi-racial, etc. children and plan to adopt one myself someday.] Excellent. If you need any help with starting the "hard to place" older child adoption process, feel free to email me. Been there… done that… twice. But as to your comment that infant adoption "too often" has bad results… come back to me after reviewing the hundreds (thousands) of profiles of kept biological children who suffered neglect and physical abuse. I think you might be seeing some things from a slightly different perspective. One child not served well by their adoptive parents - is one child too many. One child not served well by their biological parents - is one child too many. Some people think "adoption" is putting children at risk, as if being "kept" eliminates the risk. Simply false. < snip peace be To you as well. Dad
Standing, clapping, cheering. Michelle
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regarding the below. First of all, I would like to say that as a new person coming in and reading a backlog of posts, it does seem to me that the (unsurprising) tendency of people is to pick certain points of view based on their own life history and then agree/disagree with /interperet external things based on how well it jives with that history. Nowhere did I state, nor do I believe, that adoption is "bad" or will neccessarily have "bad results" and that being "kept" is good. In fact, if you look closely you will see that I said, I am not against the concept in general, that I can see why some people would choose to place children to be adopted, and in replying to someone considering placing her own child for adoption, I did not even urge her not to do so (which is pretty significant). Of course of course there are hundreds of millions of "biological" children (all children are biological : ) that is, in their original families, who are abused neglected etc etc. One would be an idiot to deny this fact, therefore, it can’t be terribly relevent, IMHO. However, there are a number of statistal surveys, studies, etc. which show that children placed for adoption have higher rates of incarceration, mental illness, and other problems. If these numbers are true, they do NOT implicate adoptive parents as bad or the cause of these problems. There can be many factors including a child’s natural feelings of abandonment in such a situation, and related feelings, or even such rudimentary possiblities as lack of infant-parent bonding (especially in the past many adoptions were delayed with infants being relinquished basically at birth and not turned over to the final parents for days weeks or months). Social stigma can have a hand too. The problem with statistical analysis is they can only document the past: things have changed rapidly in each decade and what was the norm in 1967 when I was placed is very much not the norm today, and I hope these kinds of problems have been greatly reduced (and I expect they have and ultimately will be shown to have been). Reduced yes, eliminated, no. To clarify. What seems to me as "logical" is that there are a number of feelings and issues, many of which cause some level of problems, that arise among all the triad in adoptions, that, obviously, cannot be present in families without the adoption issue. Who can deny that adoptive children very very often have sadness about and must come to terms with the situation? And of course, I am talking also about a situation in which one is assuming that the birth mother is not "pre-ordained" as likely to abuse or neglect her child, is not relinquishing because she fears this outcome, but that she has other issues going on. Issues that with more social, governmental, bio father, or family support, might NOT lead her to place a child. Or, that she may feel, with further thought, are issues that she can overcome in her own life her own way, making her own choices. What most adoptive parents that I have heard from never seem to address is this fundamental question: Would YOU want to place YOUR child for adoption? Not, could you ever in your wildest dreams imagine it, but would you WANT it? Would you think it was a "Good thing" for you or your child, fundamentally, in general? Would you WANT your daughter to place her child for adoption??? or, would you want her to raise her child (or abort, whatever) with your love and support? And if for some reason, you and she felt she couldn’t, wouldn’t you want to raise the child for her? And, the thing you said about the millions of children in original families being abused/etc. That just feeds into my point, which I stated, that I personally feel that most (or I could say many, or I could say, well, a lot) of parents are not good, or not the best, or are bad parents. And therefore, at the VERY LEAST, SOME adoptive parents have to be bad parents!!! It would seem quite ludicrous to deny this. Therefore, putting oneself in the position of considering giving away your child, to an unknown stranger, on the assumption that the child will have a better life (perhaps financially, or because it will be a two parent household, or not have a stigma of an unwed mother, or for many reasons that are not the same as "I am afraid I personally may beat my child or something as bad because of my personal issues"), it is a FAULTY assumption that your child WILL have a better life. And, in fact, it is a statistically 100% guaranteed Possibility (not certainty) that your child may not only NOT have a better life, but have a worse life, or even a BAD life, than if you had raised it. Therefore, my statement, that I personally would NEVER take this risk. Knowing that I would never know and have a lifetime of regret and fear about it. Therefore, my recomendation, to anyone who for whatever reason feels they must give a child for adoption, that they at least choose some form of open adoption, that allows them some choice of the parents, some impact. And hopefully some contact so they can see what goes on in that childs life, and in a worst case scenario, take action to protect it. (ie notify DSS if you discover abuse etc.) In a traditional closed adoption you take the most precious fragile thing you have ever produced or "owned" and give it away completely in the dark with no power and no information– EVER. I am very very much against this kind of system. I also believe that most adoptive parents, if they could look into their hearts and honestly think in terms of what if THEY were on the other side (rather than what is threatening to them as adoptive parents) would have to agree that some form of open adoption is the only way to go. re: your << Some people think "adoption" is putting children at risk, as if being "kept" eliminates the risk. Simply false. Giving your child for adoption, YOUR child, not children in an abstract sense, but the child in YOUR BELLY or your arms, whom you have this life-altering decision to make for, is putting your child at risk. Simply false? If I give my CAT to the humane society for adoption I am putting my cat at risk. The new "parents" even if they lovingly "chose" my cat, could just as well get tired of it, not like its habits, or find a new cat (or "miraculously" get pregnant with a new baby which happens fairly often) and neglect, abuse, or just not love it or allow it to feel unloved. If I sell my 100 year old house on the open market not knowing if the new buyer will just tear it down to build a mini-mansion on the lot, or gut the inside to make it all plasticy and new, I am putting my house at risk. If I have a 100 acre wood that I need to sell but wish to keep as a woods and not a strip mall, and I sell it (give it away for adoption) on the open market with no strings attached, allowing my realtor to select the buyer on whatever basis SHE chooses (in this case the highest bidder, in another case a social worker’s criteria and not necc. my own of what makes a good parent) I am putting those trees at risk. This is simply true. And if the adoption process is not at least a BIT more likely, in the case where parents simply don’t like their children (which happens in "original families" too) to lead to greater dissapointment and more unhappiness for the child, they why do SO many people, after finding they are infertile (and often spending thousands and going through agony to try to reverse the situation) cry and express their anguish when they consider making the adoption "choice." If adoption, were not a second choice, adoptive parents would never try to get pregnant. Again, I am talking about healthy white infant adoption. I myself, who have one biological child, have made the firm CHOICE never to become pregnant or never to give birth to another child from my own body, because I have made the Choice that someday I will give a home to a child who needs a home. A child who might not get one if I am not there. That is a choice. Being infertile, and aguishing over it, and then, often reluctantly, adopting a baby that would look as much as possible like your "own" baby, that is not a choice in the same sense. I am NOT saying that parents in the above situation WILL be bad, or won’t love their children. Most will be great. Maybe even a higher percentage will be great than in "biological" families, because it is such an effort. But some will be bad. Some will be very bad. It is a statistical certainty in any case. I do not know your situation but I have read a few posts from you and it seems clear that your child/children have some problems, that may be the result of bad treatment in their original families, and/or, issues from the adoption process (abandonment, etc), and that you are probably very loving and good parent and no doubt better than the "original" ones. Stating that there is a problem with a system, is not implicating all the individuals within a system nor is it painting the system with a broad brush as unworkable and needing to be thrown out completely. Does this clarification make sense to you? respectfully bbe << And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the desired product" let the buyer beware blah blah. They could not conceptualize this of course and would deny it if discussed. But my analysis of the events of my childhood leads inevitably to this conclusion. This is I feel one of the major pitfalls of adoption. A parent who is dissapointed in their child, when that child is adopted, might be and become much more dissapointed than in a traditional "" family. It is a logical conclusion.
I don’t think so. I cannot agree with your premise that adopted children are more likely to have parents who are "disappointed" in them - or that the degree of "disappointment" is somehow more … read more »
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What an interesting and thoughtful analysis of your experience. At nearly five our daughter – adopted from China – has been aware of here adoption from the very beginning. It’s always been just part of the conversation. When it comes to the subject of special and chosen, however, we do things a little differently. We call ourselves "the chosen parents" and tell her how lucky we are that she picked us (borrowing from Hindu tradition) to be her mom and dad. As an example of how this has registered in her mind I was making peanut butter bars last night and she was hovering around waiting for the spoon to lick. As she was working it over, I said to her "see how great it is be the only child. If you had a sibling, you’d have to share that spoon". Mouthful of cookie dough and focused more on her task that my observation, she didn’t reply. Typical for her, actually. She often digests information and then comments later on it. At dinner tho she piped up out of the blue and said "you know, we don’t need anymore children here, do we"? Asking whether or not she wanted a sibling she insisted, no, she liked be the only child. Then she said to us "Aren’t you happy that I picked this house to live in"? And of course, we make a big to-do about how lucky we were to be "chosen" and that of all the parents she could have picked she selected us. This, as you can well imagine, puts her on a major power trip. I don’t know how all this will turn out, only time will tell. But by the time she gets to realizing that someone else actually picked her out to be in our family, perhaps the story of the "chosen parents" will have become legend and lore in our family. Just like Santa (who, btw paid a personal visit to our house Christmas eve). And if you don’t think that blew her mind….;) (the)duckster proud to be a chosen parent
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In responce to the woman who is pregnant and considering adoption, I just wanted to say that the women who replied that they cherished their children, not second choice, etc. are undoubtably all sincere and honest but they cannot represent the gamut of adoptive parents. Those who do regard their adoptive children as "second" or worse are not going to be on this forum, most likely. I was an adoptee who was told the "story" of my adoption which included the "chosen" "more special" content, but unconsciously, my parents did regard me as second best and it showed through my entire childhood and even adult life. I feel that I was a "bad match" for my parents, in a way that has really got me thinking about the whole nature/nurture question more than I had before. I have met my birth parents and I am much more like them, in intellectual ability, interest-wise, point of view, etc. Not that I am totally like them just much more than I am like my adoptive parents. And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the desired product" let the buyer beware blah blah. They could not conceptualize this of course and would deny it if discussed. But my analysis of the events of my childhood leads inevitably to this conclusion. This is I feel one of the major pitfalls of adoption. A parent who is dissapointed in their child, when that child is adopted, might be and become much more dissapointed than in a traditional "" family. It is a logical conclusion. I am not against the concept of adoption, but I feel it does too often have bad results. [I am refering to infant adoption of healthy white babies. I fully support international adoption and adoption of "hard to place" older, bi-racial, etc. children and plan to adopt one myself someday.] I also feel that many, many parents are bad parents, in general, and therefore many many adoptive parents are bad parents too just as a general principle, without even adding the potential pitfalls of the adoption process. For these reasons I would never give a child for adoption but would not hesitate to abort. In fact, I am not pro-choice, I am pro-abortion. I recognize there are situations in which one does not have an abortion and then has second thoughts about their ability to parent, and there are those who would not have an abortion. For these people, I would recommend only ONLY ONLY open adoption of some form or another. I think you should learn as much as possible about the potential parents and excercise as much choice in the selection of who will raise your child as possible, including finding an apropriate agency or situation which will grant you that choice if neccessary. I also recommend that you try to find adoptive parents who seem "like" you as much as possible in personality, intelligence, etc. And, go with your gut. If some couple makes you uncomfortable even if they seem good on paper, maybe you should continue looking rather than accept the first placement an agency offers. You should be the person with the power; there are more potential adoptive parents than there are birth parents, as statistically illogical as that sounds. I wish you luck and the self confidence to support yourself in the decision you make- that it will be the "right" decision however hard either way may be. And remember that it is possible to see your child as an adult and develop a relationship in that way, too. peace be
Response:
In responce to the woman who is pregnant and considering adoption, I just wanted to say that the women who replied that they cherished their children, not second choice, etc. are undoubtably all sincere and honest but they cannot represent the gamut of adoptive parents. Those who do regard their adoptive children as "second" or worse are not going to be on this forum, most likely. I was an adoptee who was told the "story" of my adoption which included the "chosen" "more special" content, but unconsciously, my parents did regard me as second best and it showed through my entire childhood and even adult life. I feel that I was a "bad match" for my parents, in a way that has really got me thinking about the whole nature/nurture question more than I had before. I have met my birth parents and I am much more like them, in intellectual ability, interest-wise, point of view, etc. Not that I am totally like them just much more than I am like my adoptive parents. And, I think this "not being like them" became apparent very early on and created a dissonance in our relationship than included a profound dissapointment and dissatisfaction with me- I was "inferior goods" "not the desired product" let the buyer beware blah blah. They could not conceptualize this of course and would deny it if discussed. But my analysis of the events of my childhood leads inevitably to this conclusion. This is I feel one of the major pitfalls of adoption. A parent who is dissapointed in their child, when that child is adopted, might be and become much more dissapointed than in a traditional "" family. It is a logical conclusion. I am not against the concept of adoption, but I feel it does too often have bad results. [I am refering to infant adoption of healthy white babies. I fully support international adoption and adoption of "hard to place" older, bi-racial, etc. children and plan to adopt one myself someday.] I also feel that many, many parents are bad parents, in general, and therefore many many adoptive parents are bad parents too just as a general principle, without even adding the potential pitfalls of the adoption process. For these reasons I would never give a child for adoption but would not hesitate to abort. In fact, I am not pro-choice, I am pro-abortion. I recognize there are situations in which one does not have an abortion and then has second thoughts about their ability to parent, and there are those who would not have an abortion. For these people, I would recommend only ONLY ONLY open adoption of some form or another. I think you should learn as much as possible about the potential parents and excercise as much choice in the selection of who will raise your child as possible, including finding an apropriate agency or situation which will grant you that choice if neccessary. I also recommend that you try to find adoptive parents who seem "like" you as much as possible in personality, intelligence, etc. And, go with your gut. If some couple makes you uncomfortable even if they seem good on paper, maybe you should continue looking rather than accept the first placement an agency offers. You should be the person with the power; there are more potential adoptive parents than there are birth parents, as statistically illogical as that sounds. I wish you luck and the self confidence to support yourself in the decision you make- that it will be the "right" decision however hard either way may be. And remember that it is possible to see your child as an adult and develop a relationship in that way, too. peace be
Response:
And yeah, I didn’t take the STD part into consideration there… it’s reason enough to place more importance in celibacy regardless of whether or not I have a vasectomy. I know, there’s protection available, but I don’t mind celibacy. And hey, I’m finally about to start on anti-depressants (took me a long time to decide whether or not to take them – I didn’t want to rush a decision I’d regret), and I know from experience they kill my sex drive. That’ll make it easy. > It’s an apalling cliche, but you will get people saying "You’ll change > your mind" etc. I’m sure the Childfree members of this group would like a > dollar for each time they have been told that. Being a middle aged man > with 2 kids and a vasectomy, it’s just the sort of thing I could be > expected to say, as I have changed my mind on many things throughout my > life. I’m not going to say that, but I would refer you to the statistic > that request for vasectomy reversal is over 12 times greater amongst men > who had a vasectomy in their early 20’s as opposed to men who had it done > in their late 30’s and older. When considering if a man is a suitable > candidate for vasectomy, doctors have to take this into consideration. 
) — I finally got it all together but I forgot where I put it…