Adoptions FAQ

Connecticut “Humane” Society?

admin — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

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Thanks for the research. Also, there’s the US government list at the creative link of http://www.donotcall.gov. As opposed to the Direct Marketing Association, the Federal Trade Commission, which runs this, knows there are technologies more advanced than snail mail. Incidentally, it’s worth browsing the consumer part of www.ftc.gov. There are an amazing number of annoying things they have guides for handling, such as abusive bill collection, identity theft, and a range of scams.

Response:

All anyone needs to is take a look at all the mailing they’d get if they make even ONE donation to HSUS. I did a few years ago and now I get a torrent of requests for donations, accompanied by personalized return mail adhesive labels, calenders, picture albums, greeting cars, and other "novelties", speaking loud and clear about where donated money REALLY goes.

The American Cancer Society got our address somewhere, we suspect from someone in one of the support groups that we used to go to. Now we get them pleading with us for money, when we often have to choose the bill to pay. Pam S. tired of the ACS

Response:

Wow. I didn’t realize *everybody* got all that junk. The weirdest one I get is from some bunch that wants money for some poor Indian reservation in New Mexico or Arizona or somewhere. Man. THEY are persistant. The maddest I got was when I got a "free" DVD, about whales or something from a wildlife group. It appears I was "enrolled" by this group, would receive one a month for $9.95. It really ragged me to have to package the stupid thing and send it back. Sherry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All anyone needs to is take a look at all the mailing they’d get if they make even ONE donation to HSUS. I did a few years ago and now I get a torrent of requests for donations, accompanied by personalized return mail adhesive labels, calenders, picture albums, greeting cars, and other "novelties", speaking loud and clear about where donated money REALLY goes. I get those things in the mail all the time, not just from the Humane Society but from other organizations to whom I’ve never donated a dime. You’re right; they are wasting donated funds (or grant money, wherever it may come from) which could be better spent on taking care of the cause for which they are soliciting. I think I have enough free personalized mailing labels to last into the 22nd century. Jill

I finally got sick of all the "gifts" and such and emailed them a request to "please stop sending me stuff!". They said they would stop all mailings with the exception of the yearly calendar. I haven’t received anything since. If you’re not a contributor, it probably won’t work. I also remember seeing something about getting on a "no junk mail" list, sort of like the "do not call" list. I’ll have to try to find where I read about that. Will let you all know when I find it — Elise (supervised by Gossamer & Jeeves)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All anyone needs to is take a look at all the mailing they’d get if they make even ONE donation to HSUS. I did a few years ago and now I get a torrent of requests for donations, accompanied by personalized return mail adhesive labels, calenders, picture albums, greeting cars, and other "novelties", speaking loud and clear about where donated money REALLY goes. I get those things in the mail all the time, not just from the Humane Society but from other organizations to whom I’ve never donated a dime. You’re right; they are wasting donated funds (or grant money, wherever it may come from) which could be better spent on taking care of the cause for which they are soliciting. I think I have enough free personalized mailing labels to last into the 22nd century. Jill I finally got sick of all the "gifts" and such and emailed them a request to "please stop sending me stuff!". They said they would stop all mailings with the exception of the yearly calendar. I haven’t received anything since. If you’re not a contributor, it probably won’t work. I also remember seeing something about getting on a "no junk mail" list, sort of like the "do not call" list. I’ll have to try to find where I read about that. Will let you all know when I find it

It’s the Direct Marketing Association, although I don’t have a link. In general, there’s no way to force charities to stop soliciting by mail, email, or fax. Telling them to take you off their list for EVERYTHING often works.

Response:

Connecticut Humane Society? Picking up the mail today, I found a pink-hued solicitation letter for the Connecticut Humane Society’s Spring Fund Drive, reminding me to send a donation, assuring me that the animals they take in "are cared for in a kind and loving way". This after I had just finished a phone call from a friend consumed with grief. She had recently brought two young, friendly cats to the Society’s Westport branch, certain they would be safe there. She was stunned to find they had been put to death, along with over TWENTY other cats on Saturday, April 30, 2005. Why? Because they had caught colds. Not rabies, not distemper, not FIV or feline leukemia. Just easily treated colds. It was more convenient and less costly for the staff to kill the cats than administer antibiotics. The Connecticut Humane Society (CHS) is a privately run organization operating from its main headquarters in Newington. They have 3 branches. The Westport branch IS NOT Westport Animal Control, as is commonly thought. The Westport town-run pound is located off of South Compo Road in a small, dilapidated cement block structure. The CHS permanently closed their Stamford branch several years ago without notice, leaving a huge void for homeless animals in that area. They closed their Westport branch in 2003 for a year-long renovation, again with no notice or outreach to other shelters and rescue groups who were forced to absorb a staggering influx of unwanted animals during that time. The CHS is not obligated to report their euthanasia statistics to the State. We have no idea how many cats and dogs are "humanely" put to death at their four locations annually, but they are NOT no-kill shelters for companion animals. As reported by Animal People, a watchdog publication for animal protection charities, the CHS had $61 million of discretionary income at its disposal and another $14 million in investments held by others, yet only spent $3.7 million on programs and overhead in 2000. www.guidestar.org, the national database for nonprofit organizations, has the CHS’ 2003 IRS form 990 which shows little change from 2000. The Wise Giving Alliance (www.give.org) suggests a standard of not accumulating unrestricted net assets more than three times the size of the current year’s budget. The P.S. at the bottom of the solicitation letter I received, signed by CHS President Richard Johnston read, "With your help we will provide the security of a warm place to sleep, food for the starving, and medical attention if necessary". If my money is not being used for antibiotics, I certainly don’t want it being used to purchase sodium pentobarbitone to kill the animals in their purported care. On April 30th they strayed far from their Mission Statement of "promoting humanity and kindness". Marketing themselves as something they aren’t is an injustice not only to the Mission they are legally obligated to operate under, but to the thousands of dogs and cats in our community. You can order a subscription to Animal People’s annual "Watchdog Report" which lists the financials of over 100 animal charities by going to www.animalpeoplenews.org/watchdog_report.html Be informed, know where your money goes. I know mine will no longer go to the Connecticut Humane Society. Karen Rasmussen Wilton, CT

Response:

You need to write this to the perpetrators of the crime. And yes, I think it’s a crime they killed those cats. Jill

Response:

Why? Because they had caught colds. Not rabies, not distemper, not FIV or feline leukemia. Just easily treated colds. It was more convenient and less costly for the staff to kill the cats than administer antibiotics.

Whoa. Wait a minute. How familiar are you with the facility? What is their capacity for cats, and how many cats did they have at that time? NO shelter thinks it is "convenient" to kill cats. They hate euthanizing animals. And believe me, antibiotic is much cheaper to administer than sodium pentabarbitol. I can’t say for sure, but possibly the shelter was absolutely full past capacity, and they had to make room. Of course it is horrible to euthanize pets with a treatable illness, but if it’s a choice between the healthy kittens & cats, and the ones ill with URIs, it’s the only choice they have. If you are absolutely sure of the facts, and you KNOW this shelter is killing animals for "convenience" and because they simply don’t want to bother with them, you are well justified in your post. But please, be SURE before you slander them like that. A humane society’s best asset is its reputation. We survive on the generosity of donors. Once that reputation is tainted, or damaged, the donations will stop coming. And when that happens, my friend, the animals are the ones who suffer. Just be sure you’ve got your facts straight. Ask for a tour of the shelter–see for yourself how overcrowded (nor not) they are. Ask for their euthanasia records. (Most shelters will share them). Please don’t be a part of that unless you have solid, first-hand information and have looked into it yourself. Sherry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Connecticut Humane Society? Picking up the mail today, I found a pink-hued solicitation letter for the Connecticut Humane Society’s Spring Fund Drive, reminding me to send a donation, assuring me that the animals they take in "are cared for in a kind and loving way". This after I had just finished a phone call from a friend consumed with grief. She had recently brought two young, friendly cats to the Society’s Westport branch, certain they would be safe there. She was stunned to find they had been put to death, along with over TWENTY other cats on Saturday, April 30, 2005. Why? Because they had caught colds. This is not a troll. I live in CT and volunteer for Friends of Felines in Stamford, CT. www.adoptapet.org All the no-kill rescue groups in CT after been after the CT Humane Society for a long time. The CT Humane Society considers any animal over a year old unadoptable and disposable. This group also has alot of $$$$$. This woman is obviously irate as are all the no-kill rescue groups in CT who so desparately need money to run their small no-kill groups. Meanwhile, ignorant people are swayed by the constant pleas for money by the CT Humane Society’s propaganda. Sticky Buds All anyone needs to is take a look at all the mailing they’d get if they make even ONE donation to HSUS. I did a few years ago and now I get a torrent of requests for donations, accompanied by personalized return mail adhesive labels, calenders, picture albums, greeting cars, and other "novelties", speaking loud and clear about where donated money REALLY goes.

I get those things in the mail all the time, not just from the Humane Society but from other organizations to whom I’ve never donated a dime. You’re right; they are wasting donated funds (or grant money, wherever it may come from) which could be better spent on taking care of the cause for which they are soliciting. I think I have enough free personalized mailing labels to last into the 22nd century. Jill

Response:

Ontario Adoptees File Human Rights Complaint

admin — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Adoptees should not have the right to know who their birth parents are. They should have the right to their medical history. No more! The rights of adoptees stop where the rights of birth parents begin. Jean-Pierre Gauthier

And where would that be? Nevermind, I know. And FYI I am one of those mothers. I do not buy into the c*** that my rights conflict with my son’s. The stupid laws of secrecy posit it that way, not me or my son. Secrecy laws support the shame and blame experienced so heavily by some mothers and it’s time that we get rid of the "problem". If you really care about us, and somehow I doubt it that you really do, do you really think that supporting secrecy (that enables and continues the shame) is helping us? This is hardly even thinking outside of the box. Karen

Response:

Hi Karen, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s what’s been happening. Bill 183 was introduced on March 29th by the Liberal government. It was a far from perfect bill (contact veto & fine, against our advice & lobbying), but it was the first bill ever introduced by a government. The government has a majority so we knew that it would likely pass – or so we thought. THEN, to everyone’s surprise, the IPC began her vigorous, over-the-top lobbying campaign against the bill. See http://www.ipc.on.ca/scripts/index_.asp?action=31&P_ID=16185&N_ID=1&P…. She even got ten privacy commissioners across the country to support her publically. The media took up her cause and rode on the fear factor that she was her platform. People actually, it seemed, began to fear the bill. The fight took place in the media and we were only able to get very little coverage. We wrote op-eds, articles, and many letters. No one was listening to us, except the government which is very subject to public opinion. The public was fed and accepted the spectre of the fearful, cowering woman who needed "protection" and the IPC was seen as a hero for standing up for her. For months we have been trying to talk to the IPC but she refused to answer our mail or accept a meeting. She just kept spewing out her press releases, relentlessly.

With respect, I’ve seen quite a few press releases from COAR as well. Indeed, I read about the HR complaint on the Ottawa Citizen site yesterday before the IPC issued their response. The COAR press release was at the start of this thread also. BEFORE the IPC put out their press release. The bill passed second reading with only twelve of the opposition saying "nay". Twelve men.

Are you suggesting this is some kind of vast male conspiracy. Are the votes of these twelve MPs somehow worth less because they are men? Sounds like discrimination on the basis of sex to me! Still very little press for us.

Wait – don’t tell me; perhaps it’s a vast male and media conspiracy! Perhaps all these conservative media barons are birth parents who want to hide their past!. This could be true I guess; but it sounds hysterical! 16 adopted people decided that the right to know was their human right, not just a privilege to be meted out to government. The HR case may not make hay in an HR tibunal, but it sure got the media to listen to us. I actually think it is a human right and so does the UN, not that our federal government cares, but it is a case.

Understand – nobody has had their rights taken away. These 16 people didn’t have this right last year, they didn’t have this right last month. Nothing has changed since Ann Cavoukian did her job and provided her counsel to the legislature. That’s why this is wrong. (Well – it’s also wrong on Freedom of expression grounds, as well as probably not creating an inequality on a simple reading of the OHRC as well as a couple of other reasons.) That’s the way it works here. Privacy commissioners are strong and getting stronger. They seem to have a huge influence on laws, yet they are not elected. What’s worse is that this will affect open records across the country, so the fight here is pivotal. There are three provinces with disclosure vetoes and the advocates in those places would love to get rid of them (like Western Australia did just this month).

And a whole bunch of other people see a problem with that. Get over it – or at least learn to disagree without the name caling. (It hurts your argument, which I was beginning to start to understand). PHT

Response:

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s what’s been happening. Bill 183 was introduced on March 29th by the Liberal government. It was a far from perfect bill (contact veto & fine, against our advice & lobbying), but it was the first bill ever introduced by a government. The government has a majority so we knew that it would likely pass – or so we thought. THEN, to everyone’s surprise, the IPC began her vigorous, over-the-top lobbying campaign against the bill. See http://www.ipc.on.ca/scripts/index_.asp?action=31&P_ID=16185&N_ID=1&P…. She even got ten privacy commissioners across the country to support her publically. The media took up her cause and rode on the fear factor that she was her platform. People actually, it seemed, began to fear the bill. The fight took place in the media and we were only able to get very little coverage. We wrote op-eds, articles, and many letters. No one was listening to us, except the government which is very subject to public opinion. The public was fed and accepted the spectre of the fearful, cowering woman who needed "protection" and the IPC was seen as a hero for standing up for her. For months we have been trying to talk to the IPC but she refused to answer our mail or accept a meeting. She just kept spewing out her press releases, relentlessly. The bill passed second reading with only twelve of the opposition saying "nay". Twelve men. The bill went to committee and some of the dirty dozen filibustered until the bill was held over until the fall. Still very little press for us. 16 adopted people decided that the right to know was their human right, not just a privilege to be meted out to government. The HR case may not make hay in an HR tibunal, but it sure got the media to listen to us

I understand the frustration in not being able to get media attention to counteract the IPC. I was disheartened by all the media reports slamming the bill and accepting the IPC’s criticism–especially when I find her analysis to be so utterly facile and, out and out, wrong. Moreover, I am aware of the old adage that any press is good press–it’s just that, in this case, the press that these complaints will generate is going to hurt your cause. Presumably, the goal is to try to sway public opinion in favour of opening records retroactively, without a disclosure (or contact?) veto. How are these complaints going to help do that? Hell, I support your cause, disagree vehemently with the IPC’s comments and, yet, I’m distinctly unimpressed with these complaints. I can only imagine the thoughts of someone who agrees with the IPC. To the extent that this is about selling a message, think about what these complaints have done. The IPC is being lauded for standing up for the "fearful, cowering woman who needs protection" (to use your phrase). Now, she can add to that the spectre that the adoption lobby is trying to coerce her into silence by launching frivolous legal proceedings. I actually think it is a human right and so does the UN, not that our federal government cares, but it is a case.

Perhaps it is a case. It’s just not a very good one. In fact, it’s a pretty bad one. And one that, incidentally, won’t be resolved for years unless a settlement is reached(the OHRC is notoriously slow and has a huge backlog). All of which poses a problem for your cause. If you had a slam dunk case, that would be one thing. As it is, it just looks like sour grapes. That’s the way it works here. Privacy commissioners are strong and getting stronger. They seem to have a huge influence on laws, yet they are not elected.

Lots of people who aren’t elected have a huge influence on laws–that’s not news. What was news was that a provincial government in Canada was prepared to open adoption records retroactively. It was prepared to do so without a disclosure veto (albeit, with a contact veto). It was resisting vocal opposition from an independent officer of the legislature to include a disclosure veto. All of which was newsworthy within the Canadian context. Maybe I’ve misunderstood your motives. If you were out to scuttle the bill in its entirety because of the existence of the contact veto (I think Marley has elsewhere suggested that was her ideal–I could be wrong on that) then you may yet be successful. Who knows? I’m finding the whole process pretty ugly and devoid of common sense on both sides. I guess that’s why I try to avoid partisan politics. Tom

Response:

Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall.

See, THAT’S how you do it :-) And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with?

See my other response to you. Canada has become very Euro-like in their goverance. Nanny socialism is the modus operandi. steve

Response:

I don’t think what you’ve been following what’s going on there.

That’s never stopped me before :-) But I have been following here on alt.a In 30 years of this crap I’ve never seen so much hate spewed against adopted persons as came from her. If’ she’d talked that way about racial or religious minorities she’d have been booted out at once. According to her, adoptees are liars, stalkers, killers, and responsible for honor killings.

She’s a moron. No question there. The bill in question, Bill 183 is a government bill (brought by the government, not any adoptee rights group) which permitted records access to adoptees and bparents, which was a big mistake. Though I personally not only support records access for bparents, but for the general public (records should be open for anybody) this is a huge legislative mistake that has scuttled more than one access bill. BN opposed it due to it’s contact veto and $50,000 fine. Cavoukian has gutted the bill. Nobody wants it now.

That’s what I gathered, and why I say that (in Canada) one goes to one’s parliament and fights. She has also caused extreme harm to records access bill throughout North America, where adopted persons can now be seen as a "suspect class"–not in the legal sense, but the moral sense. Cavoukian has some serious problem with adoption in general and adopted persons in particular. Her long prepared statement is really odd. She hasn’t even read the complaint, yet she (or her flunky press person) issued a public rebuttal. That’s just not done. It’s usually "no comment." So what’s up with that? Maybe she has a little secret back in Armenia.

Like I said, filing a complaint against an HR Commissioner is a bad idea. OF COURSE she’s going to respond right away — no way she can let that sit. And she did, and she’ll circle her wagons. It’s been my observation that one has to be a certain type of person to want the job of "Human Rights Commissioner" in the first place — liberal weenie with a HUGE stick up one’s butt — so it’s no surprise to me that she responds with such vehemence. The point is, now the open records crowd is SOL in trying to get anything done in Ontario. You don’t get legislation passed by antagonizing people. That’s something BN & Co. should have learned by now. See: Alabama for the right way. steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Marley: I don’t disagree with you in some respects. I can tell you I have serious concerns about Patriot Act, CAPPS II, etc. – they are still in my mind privacy violations, at least in their use of retrospective data – albeit with the blessing of statute. For me, I understand the benefits of having open records – indeed, even public records (in Ontario where I am – only a subset of authorized persons can request birth certificates). I am perfectly happy to have open records on a going forward basis. Where I run into a sticky patch is the subject of retroactivity. While I think it’s well settled (I’m not sure how much you know about the circumstances here) in Ontario there was no statutory basis for the promises of anonymity/confidentiality – it certainly seems that these were given (properly or improperly) to many birth parents by social workers and children’s aid workers.

Such promises are never binding. It would be like a worker at the assessors office promising you that your property tax will never increase. What these adoption professionals did was promise something they had no business promising. At heart, statutes are not promises, and statements that imply that a statute is a promise are misrepresentations. You and your colleagues raise some interesting questions (such as whether a birth parent has a right of anonymity from their own child – given the prescence of all (at least one birth parent, possibly two – and the child) at the birth). I’ll be honest and tell you I haven’t completed my thinking on this. It represents a conflict.

I don’t know on what basis birthparents may argue that they have a special right to anonymity. There is nothing inherent in adoption to render birthparenthood a special category or class, too many birthmothers are not anonymous, too many adoptions are successfully rendered without it. Anyone from a neighbor, a relative, a friend or acquaintance may know that Ms. X was pregnant, gave birth, and relinquished. Are all of these third parties bound under the alleged right of the birthmother to anonymity? What I’ve yet to see in the Ontario discussion is the fact that birth is both a private and a public act. While I’m very happy with open records on a going forward basis. I’m not ready to disregard the promises made to birth parents in the past. Quite honestly, I don’t think the public policy benefit to mandatory disclosure for the 3-4% that may file a disclosure veto outweights the public policy benefit of the state (or the state’s representative) keeping their promise.

Since the state couldn’t legitimately make the promise and its representatives could only do so by misrepresenting the statutory nature of adoption, then the state isn’t bound by the promise. Period. One thing that is troubling to me, at least in the Ontario context – is the language and imputation of motive that is being spread around by the activist community. While I can understand the emotion, I suppose – I don’t think its helpful to finding a solution. We may disagree on the interpretation, and even the paramouncy of rights – but we should be able to discuss it without name calling.

Couvakian has acted as an advocate for the most reactionary position against open records. Far from bringing reasoned judgement to the debate, she has used an extremely biased and hysterical rhetoric and graced it with the imprimatuer of her office. At least I know now how to oppose a bill I don’t like, I’ll anonymously threaten to kill myself and no legislator can resist my arguments. Sheesh. Ron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PHT Privacy does not exist in the United States where it is construed as keeping the state out of the personal business of it’s citizens. Take a look at Griswold. I know you’re from up north, but ever hear of the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, Real ID, TSA? The state can do anything it wants, can snoop on anybody it wants, doesn’t need search warrants any more in some cases, basically monitors what we do. Oh, and it can see what books you took out of the library, just in case Osama, who you’re hiding in your home, gets a hankering to read Barbara Cartland. Ideally, for me, the state shouldn’t even issue birth certificates, death certificaets, marriages licences, etc. But as long as they do, it’s in the pubic record, at least here. (A lot of people however do confuse secrecy for privacy, so you’re not alone). I’ve been in this racket for 30 years, Hiding somebody’s public birth record means that the over-arching nanny state protects the secrets of individuals. I don’t know how anybody can live in Socialist Canada–except to escape the National Socialist US. My birth father who is 77 and lives in Amherst keeps talking about moving to St. Catherines to get away from Bush. Marley

Response:

Hi Marley: I don’t disagree with you in some respects. I can tell you I have serious concerns about Patriot Act, CAPPS II, etc. – they are still in my mind privacy violations, at least in their use of retrospective data – albeit with the blessing of statute. For me, I understand the benefits of having open records – indeed, even public records (in Ontario where I am – only a subset of authorized persons can request birth certificates). I am perfectly happy to have open records on a going forward basis. Where I run into a sticky patch is the subject of retroactivity. While I think it’s well settled (I’m not sure how much you know about the circumstances here) in Ontario there was no statutory basis for the promises of anonymity/confidentiality – it certainly seems that these were given (properly or improperly) to many birth parents by social workers and children’s aid workers. You and your colleagues raise some interesting questions (such as whether a birth parent has a right of anonymity from their own child – given the prescence of all (at least one birth parent, possibly two – and the child) at the birth). I’ll be honest and tell you I haven’t completed my thinking on this. It represents a conflict. While I’m very happy with open records on a going forward basis. I’m not ready to disregard the promises made to birth parents in the past. Quite honestly, I don’t think the public policy benefit to mandatory disclosure for the 3-4% that may file a disclosure veto outweights the public policy benefit of the state (or the state’s representative) keeping their promise. One thing that is troubling to me, at least in the Ontario context – is the language and imputation of motive that is being spread around by the activist community. While I can understand the emotion, I suppose – I don’t think its helpful to finding a solution. We may disagree on the interpretation, and even the paramouncy of rights – but we should be able to discuss it without name calling. PHT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Privacy does not exist in the United States where it is construed as keeping the state out of the personal business of it’s citizens. Take a look at Griswold. I know you’re from up north, but ever hear of the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, Real ID, TSA? The state can do anything it wants, can snoop on anybody it wants, doesn’t need search warrants any more in some cases, basically monitors what we do. Oh, and it can see what books you took out of the library, just in case Osama, who you’re hiding in your home, gets a hankering to read Barbara Cartland. Ideally, for me, the state shouldn’t even issue birth certificates, death certificaets, marriages licences, etc. But as long as they do, it’s in the pubic record, at least here. (A lot of people however do confuse secrecy for privacy, so you’re not alone). I’ve been in this racket for 30 years, Hiding somebody’s public birth record means that the over-arching nanny state protects the secrets of individuals. I don’t know how anybody can live in Socialist Canada–except to escape the National Socialist US. My birth father who is 77 and lives in Amherst keeps talking about moving to St. Catherines to get away from Bush. Marley

Response:

This issue is burdened with enough simple-minded slogans, Jean-Pierre. Care to define for us where these rights begin and end, and why, in your opinion? What exactly are the "rights of birth parents" in your view? The "rights of adoptees"? Does an adoptee have the right to know of the existence of a brother, sister, uncle, aunt, grandparent, or parent who did not consent to adoption or does not want his relationship concealed? How do you reconcile the rights of a birth parent who wants disclosure and one who does not? Will you gag the one to protect the other? J.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unlike Dr. Kervokain’s description of adoptees as stalkers, liars and murderers. There’s names for people like her, but no doubt if I used them here somebody would forward them to her. This just isn’t true – if you read what’s in the public record she didn’t say this at all! The only name calling and bitterness I’ve seen is from those who don’t seem to like her. I don’t find that particularly helpful at all – it dimishes the open records argument. Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall. And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with? There is no such thing as privacy. Only secrets. it’s unfortunate that your life experiences have jaded your view in this way. Privacy does exist – it’s important as a social good. (A lot of people however do confuse secrecy for privacy, so you’re not alone).

Care to explain the difference to those of us too dim to understand, Peter? A birth parent may reasonably argue that their decision to relinquish a child for adoption not be a matter of public record, available to all. But the birth of that child and the names of those responsible for that birth? Why, when these facts are available to all for all others? Does anyone really think that anyone other than someone with a direct interest in the matter is likely to search the public record to determine whether a person gave birth to a child not in evidence? The only reason for insisting on that, so far as I can see, is to conceal the fact and avoid embarrassment or shame, at the expense of severing the child’s links to not only the parent but every other person to whom that child may be biologically related. Rightly or not, these are considered important links in both our cultures and have been for centuries. It also seems to me that nothing but our thoughts is ever truly private. Once an event is known to a single other person, one cannot legitimately expect that fact to remain forever secret. If one later chooses to conceal the fact of a child’s birth and relinquishment from a spouse or after-born children, that is not a question of privacy but of secrecy, the conscious concealment of information which we know may affect the lives of not only ourselves but of others, if revealed. It is the potential impact on others that distingusihes the private from the secret, IMO. Government may legitimately protect privacy, matters of invidual conscience; it has no leigitimate role in the keeping of personal secrets. J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sixteen adoptees have filed human rights complaints with the Ontario Human Rights Commission against Ann Cavoukian, Information and Privacy Commissioner in Ontario. They are alleging that the privacy commissioner intended to incite the infringement of the right to equal treatment because of family status – they are adopted. This is contrary to section 13 (1) of the Ontario Human Rights Code. Dumb, dumb, dumb. This is not the way you get open records. I don’t know the legal system in Canada, but I bet it’s highly unlikely a HR Commission will slap a government official who is, after all, exercising one of the duties of his office. And now you’ve pissed him off, and will undoubtedly pissed off a number of MPs. It’s a club, remember? Y’all have a hearing going on about how clubby the Liberals are, in fact, if you need a reminder. This is more of the liberal-weenie nanny-state approach to problem-solving, and it won’t work — not in Canada and not in the U.S. You want open records? Go into your parliament and fight for them. Indeed, I too was astounded when I read the original post. The complaint likely has little merit–and strategically, it makes adoptees look like a bunch of whiners who are trying to intimidate (through the use of bogus legal proceedings) those who oppose the Bill. To put it bluntly, it’s the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum when he doesn’t get his way–which I wouldn’t have thought is exactly the image you want to convey when trying to open records retroactively. Tom Unlike Dr. Kervokain’s description of adoptees as stalkers, liars and murderers. There’s names for people like her, but no doubt if I used them here somebody would forward them to her. Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall. And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with? There is no such thing as privacy. Only secrets. Marley

Here’s what’s been happening. Bill 183 was introduced on March 29th by the Liberal government. It was a far from perfect bill (contact veto & fine, against our advice & lobbying), but it was the first bill ever introduced by a government. The government has a majority so we knew that it would likely pass – or so we thought. THEN, to everyone’s surprise, the IPC began her vigorous, over-the-top lobbying campaign against the bill. See http://www.ipc.on.ca/scripts/index_.asp?action=31&P_ID=16185&N_ID=1&P…. She even got ten privacy commissioners across the country to support her publically. The media took up her cause and rode on the fear factor that she was her platform. People actually, it seemed, began to fear the bill. The fight took place in the media and we were only able to get very little coverage. We wrote op-eds, articles, and many letters. No one was listening to us, except the government which is very subject to public opinion. The public was fed and accepted the spectre of the fearful, cowering woman who needed "protection" and the IPC was seen as a hero for standing up for her. For months we have been trying to talk to the IPC but she refused to answer our mail or accept a meeting. She just kept spewing out her press releases, relentlessly. The bill passed second reading with only twelve of the opposition saying "nay". Twelve men. The bill went to committee and some of the dirty dozen filibustered until the bill was held over until the fall. Still very little press for us. 16 adopted people decided that the right to know was their human right, not just a privilege to be meted out to government. The HR case may not make hay in an HR tibunal, but it sure got the media to listen to us. I actually think it is a human right and so does the UN, not that our federal government cares, but it is a case. That’s the way it works here. Privacy commissioners are strong and getting stronger. They seem to have a huge influence on laws, yet they are not elected. What’s worse is that this will affect open records across the country, so the fight here is pivotal. There are three provinces with disclosure vetoes and the advocates in those places would love to get rid of them (like Western Australia did just this month). That’s the short story of it. Karen

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unlike Dr. Kervokain’s description of adoptees as stalkers, liars and murderers. There’s names for people like her, but no doubt if I used them here somebody would forward them to her. This just isn’t true – if you read what’s in the public record she didn’t say this at all! The only name calling and bitterness I’ve seen is from those who don’t seem to like her. I don’t find that particularly helpful at all – it dimishes the open records argument. Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall. And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with? There is no such thing as privacy. Only secrets. it’s unfortunate that your life experiences have jaded your view in this way. Privacy does exist – it’s important as a social good.

Privacy does not exist in the United States where it is construed as keeping the state out of the personal business of it’s citizens. Take a look at Griswold. I know you’re from up north, but ever hear of the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, Real ID, TSA? The state can do anything it wants, can snoop on anybody it wants, doesn’t need search warrants any more in some cases, basically monitors what we do. Oh, and it can see what books you took out of the library, just in case Osama, who you’re hiding in your home, gets a hankering to read Barbara Cartland. Ideally, for me, the state shouldn’t even issue birth certificates, death certificaets, marriages licences, etc. But as long as they do, it’s in the pubic record, at least here. (A lot of people however do confuse secrecy for privacy, so you’re not alone).

I’ve been in this racket for 30 years, Hiding somebody’s public birth record means that the over-arching nanny state protects the secrets of individuals. I don’t know how anybody can live in Socialist Canada–except to escape the National Socialist US. My birth father who is 77 and lives in Amherst keeps talking about moving to St. Catherines to get away from Bush. Marley

Response:

You may be right, but if we had done nothing at all, for *sure* we would be stuck with a disclosure veto. Finally the press is listening to us and hearing about valid reasons to not have a DV. Since we do think that it’s a human right that trumps the vested right of nparents (taken in the oppositional context of the legal system, what we’re stuck with), we think it’s a good idea to demonstrate this to the public. To the extent that this is about selling a message, think about what these complaints have done. The IPC is being lauded for standing up for the "fearful, cowering woman who needs protection" (to use your phrase). Now, she can add to that the spectre that the adoption lobby is trying to coerce her into silence by launching frivolous legal proceedings.

We are trying to make it clear to the press that it’s been US who has been silenced. They appear to be hearing this. I actually think it is a human right and so does the UN, not that our federal government cares, but it is a case. Perhaps it is a case. It’s just not a very good one. In fact, it’s a pretty bad one. And one that, incidentally, won’t be resolved for years unless a settlement is reached (the OHRC is notoriously slow and has a huge backlog). All of which poses a problem for your cause. If you had a slam dunk case, that would be one thing. As it is, it just looks like sour grapes.

It may take years, yes. But if we lose this bill it will be years and years before we get another one. If we lose the HR case, we will be no further behind. That’s the way it works here. Privacy commissioners are strong and getting stronger. They seem to have a huge influence on laws, yet they are not elected. Lots of people who aren’t elected have a huge influence on laws–that’s not news.

Yeah sure, but it is news for a privacy commissioner to take such an aggressive stance against an open records bill. What was news was that a provincial government in Canada was prepared to open adoption records retroactively. It was prepared to do so without a disclosure veto (albeit, with a contact veto). It was resisting vocal opposition from an independent officer of the legislature to include a disclosure veto. All of which was newsworthy within the Canadian context.

Resisting? Some don’t think so – not much anyway. We’ll find out in the fall just how strong their resistance has been. Maybe I’ve misunderstood your motives. If you were out to scuttle the bill in its entirety because of the existence of the contact veto (I think Marley has elsewhere suggested that was her ideal–I could be wrong on that) then you may yet be successful. Who knows?

No we aren’t out to scuttle the bill. We are out to get the best we can within our context. We are not like the US. Look at NL, AB and BC. Politicians here (except the government in ON) resist the experience of open records in other countries. I’m finding the whole process pretty ugly and devoid of common sense on both sides. I guess that’s why I try to avoid partisan politics.

Then what would have been a better strategy? The adoption community, at least almost all I know here, are thrilled that finally we are being heard. BTW this isn’t partisan. The NDP and the Liberals are united in this. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom

Response:

Unlike Dr. Kervokain’s description of adoptees as stalkers, liars and murderers. There’s names for people like her, but no doubt if I used them here somebody would forward them to her. Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall. And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with? There is no such thing as privacy. Only secrets. Marley

Response:

She hasn’t even read the complaint, yet she (or her flunky press person) issued a public rebuttal. That’s just not done. It’s usually "no comment." So what’s up with that? Maybe she has a little secret back in Armenia.

You had people from COAR issuing press releases already – perhaps that’s why she responded. I don’t understand the Armenia comment – I doubt she’s even been there. PHT

Response:

Unlike Dr. Kervokain’s description of adoptees as stalkers, liars and murderers. There’s names for people like her, but no doubt if I used them here somebody would forward them to her.

This just isn’t true – if you read what’s in the public record she didn’t say this at all! The only name calling and bitterness I’ve seen is from those who don’t seem to like her. I don’t find that particularly helpful at all – it dimishes the open records argument. Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall. And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with? There is no such thing as privacy. Only secrets.

it’s unfortunate that your life experiences have jaded your view in this way. Privacy does exist – it’s important as a social good. (A lot of people however do confuse secrecy for privacy, so you’re not alone).

Response:

snip Indeed, I too was astounded when I read the original post. The complaint likely has little merit–and strategically, it makes adoptees look like a bunch of whiners who are trying to intimidate (through the use of bogus legal proceedings) those who oppose the Bill. To put it bluntly, it’s the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum when he doesn’t get his way–which I wouldn’t have thought is exactly the image you want to convey when trying to open records retroactively. Tom Unlike Dr. Kervokain’s description of adoptees as stalkers, liars and murderers. There’s names for people like her, but no doubt if I used them here somebody would forward them to her.

She’s called adoptees stalkers, liars and murderers? Good God, I hadn’t read that. However, I do agree that she’s been over the top. Moreover, I’ve found her analysis of the issues to be deeply flawed and oddly one-sided. Sometimes, when I read some of her statements, I’m floored that (a) anyone could say what she’s been saying with a straight face, and (b) anyone would believe what she’s saying. But, be that as it may, she has been extremely effective in persuading people that her criticism of the Bill is legitimate. In other words, she’s winning the communications war. Frankly, bringing bogus legal proceedings against her just strengthens her position. Personally, I’d not have filed a suit. There are other, more fun ways, to to handle people like her and run her out of business personall. And why in the world do the nanny socialists up there have a "privacy" commissioner to start with? There is no such thing as privacy. Only secrets.

Her role is actually the _Information and_ Privacy Commissioner. Originally, these offices were created to deal with access to information requests to governments. The idea, generally speaking, is that there should be checks and balances to access to information–hence, the concept of an Information and Privacy Commissioner. That’s it in a nutshell. However, privacy is the current buzzword up here. Frankly, it’s all the rage in legal circles. I had expected a more persuasive argument from her; but, I’m not surprised that the Privacy Commissioner is the one holding up the legislation. Tom

Response:

I don’t think what you’ve been following what’s going on there. In 30 years of this crap I’ve never seen so much hate spewed against adopted persons as came from her. If’ she’d talked that way about racial or religious minorities she’d have been booted out at once. According to her, adoptees are liars, stalkers, killers, and responsible for honor killings. The bill in question, Bill 183 is a government bill (brought by the government, not any adoptee rights group) which permitted records access to adoptees and bparents, which was a big mistake. Though I personally not only support records access for bparents, but for the general public (records should be open for anybody) this is a huge legislative mistake that has scuttled more than one access bill. BN opposed it due to it’s contact veto and $50,000 fine. Cavoukian has gutted the bill. Nobody wants it now. She has also caused extreme harm to records access bill throughout North America, where adopted persons can now be seen as a "suspect class"–not in the legal sense, but the moral sense. Cavoukian has some serious problem with adoption in general and adopted persons in particular. Her long prepared statement is really odd. She hasn’t even read the complaint, yet she (or her flunky press person) issued a public rebuttal. That’s just not done. It’s usually "no comment." So what’s up with that? Maybe she has a little secret back in Armenia. Marley

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sixteen adoptees have filed human rights complaints with the Ontario Human Rights Commission against Ann Cavoukian, Information and Privacy Commissioner in Ontario. They are alleging that the privacy commissioner intended to incite the infringement of the right to equal treatment because of family status – they are adopted. This is contrary to section 13 (1) of the Ontario Human Rights Code. Dumb, dumb, dumb. This is not the way you get open records. I don’t know the legal system in Canada, but I bet it’s highly unlikely a HR Commission will slap a government official who is, after all, exercising one of the duties of his office. And now you’ve pissed him off, and will undoubtedly pissed off a number of MPs. It’s a club, remember? Y’all have a hearing going on about how clubby the Liberals are, in fact, if you need a reminder. This is more of the liberal-weenie nanny-state approach to problem-solving, and it won’t work — not in Canada and not in the U.S. You want open records? Go into your parliament and fight for them.

Indeed, I too was astounded when I read the original post. The complaint likely has little merit–and strategically, it makes adoptees look like a bunch of whiners who are trying to intimidate (through the use of bogus legal proceedings) those who oppose the Bill. To put it bluntly, it’s the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum when he doesn’t get his way–which I wouldn’t have thought is exactly the image you want to convey when trying to open records retroactively. Tom

Response:

Are you just being sarcastic? Or are you phenomenally ignorant of the issues involved? Or are you perhaps just a bit of a troll? Robin Harritt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Groundless complaint has no foundation in fact or in law TORONTO, June 23 / The following statement was issued today by Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner Ann Cavoukian, in response to media calls: I have learned through two media calls that a number of adoptees have filed a complaint against me with the Ontario Human Rights Commission, claiming that I have breached a provision of Ontario’s Human Rights Code (Code). I have not seen this complaint, nor have I received any official notification of its existence, either from the complainants or from the Human Rights Commission.

She hasn’t been officially notified, yet she’s already responding to media reports? Strange. Rh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I regret to say that I see the filing of this complaint as an effort to silence my voice and discourage me from performing my duties to the public and the Ontario Legislature. This kind of complaint represents a grave threat to the public’s right to hear and participate in a vigorous public debate. Further it could have a chilling effect on the free speech of all Ontarians. Anyone advancing a dissenting view could be vulnerable to this kind of legal proceeding. Moreover, this complaint has no foundation whatsoever in fact or in law. From what a reporter has passed on to me, I understand that these individuals allege that my public statements on Bill 183, the Adoption Information Disclosure Act, including my statements in legislative committee hearings and on my office website, are "intended to incite the infringement of the right to equal treatment without discrimination on the basis of family or marital status." To the contrary, my public statements on the important issues raised by Bill 183 are designed to ensure that the legislation ultimately enacted strikes an appropriate balance between the rights of all concerned, including the rights of individuals to learn the identities of their birth parents or adopted children and the rights of both groups to protect their privacy against unwanted disclosure of their identities. I have a solemn statutory duty as the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario and an Officer of the Legislature to provide public comment on the privacy protection implications of proposed legislative schemes or government programs. This is enshrined in section 59(a) of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. The provision in the Code which I have allegedly breached expressly states that it does not interfere with anyone’s freedom of expression of opinion. In advising the Legislature and the public, I am expressing my opinion as an Officer of the Legislature, appointed for this very purpose. This is my job. To say that I could be in breach of the Human Rights Code for doing what the legislation requires me to do simply makes no sense. In legal terms, it would be considered patently unreasonable. In my role as Commissioner, I provide advice to the Legislature on the nature of the legislation it should enact. If the Commissioner can be silenced for advising the Legislature on proposed legislation through such complaints, what about an MPP or the leader of the opposition? Not only is the position I have taken not discriminatory in any way, it is quite the opposite. It is designed to ensure that the Legislature strikes an effective balance and reflects the rights and interests of all concerned. The legislation reflected in Bill 183 – in whatever final form it takes – will of course be subject to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If the legislation faces a Charter challenge, the courts will necessary require that competing rights be considered and balanced. Today, my goal is to ensure that the voices of all parties are heard, and that privacy rights are not trampled upon as we move to openness. To silence the voices of the minority would indeed be a travesty – I will not ignore them, nor should the public or the Legislature. For further information: Media Contact: Bob Spence, Communications

Response:

Nice. Obviously, you’re not an adoptee. — —— Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557 Science doesn’t burn people at the stake for disagreeing – Vic Sagerquist

Response:

Sixteen adoptees have filed human rights complaints with the Ontario Human Rights Commission against Ann Cavoukian, Information and Privacy Commissioner in Ontario. They are alleging that the privacy commissioner intended to incite the infringement of the right to equal treatment because of family status – they are adopted. This is contrary to section 13 (1) of the Ontario Human Rights Code.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. This is not the way you get open records. I don’t know the legal system in Canada, but I bet it’s highly unlikely a HR Commission will slap a government official who is, after all, exercising one of the duties of his office. And now you’ve pissed him off, and will undoubtedly pissed off a number of MPs. It’s a club, remember? Y’all have a hearing going on about how clubby the Liberals are, in fact, if you need a reminder. This is more of the liberal-weenie nanny-state approach to problem-solving, and it won’t work — not in Canada and not in the U.S. You want open records? Go into your parliament and fight for them. steve

Response:

Groundless complaint has no foundation in fact or in law TORONTO, June 23 / The following statement was issued today by Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner Ann Cavoukian, in response to media calls: I have learned through two media calls that a number of adoptees have filed a complaint against me with the Ontario Human Rights Commission, claiming that I have breached a provision of Ontario’s Human Rights Code (Code). I have not seen this complaint, nor have I received any official notification of its existence, either from the complainants or from the Human Rights Commission. I regret to say that I see the filing of this complaint as an effort to silence my voice and discourage me from performing my duties to the public and the Ontario Legislature. This kind of complaint represents a grave threat to the public’s right to hear and participate in a vigorous public debate. Further it could have a chilling effect on the free speech of all Ontarians. Anyone advancing a dissenting view could be vulnerable to this kind of legal proceeding. Moreover, this complaint has no foundation whatsoever in fact or in law. From what a reporter has passed on to me, I understand that these individuals allege that my public statements on Bill 183, the Adoption Information Disclosure Act, including my statements in legislative committee hearings and on my office website, are "intended to incite the infringement of the right to equal treatment without discrimination on the basis of family or marital status." To the contrary, my public statements on the important issues raised by Bill 183 are designed to ensure that the legislation ultimately enacted strikes an appropriate balance between the rights of all concerned, including the rights of individuals to learn the identities of their birth parents or adopted children and the rights of both groups to protect their privacy against unwanted disclosure of their identities. I have a solemn statutory duty as the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario and an Officer of the Legislature to provide public comment on the privacy protection implications of proposed legislative schemes or government programs. This is enshrined in section 59(a) of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. The provision in the Code which I have allegedly breached expressly states that it does not interfere with anyone’s freedom of expression of opinion. In advising the Legislature and the public, I am expressing my opinion as an Officer of the Legislature, appointed for this very purpose. This is my job. To say that I could be in breach of the Human Rights Code for doing what the legislation requires me to do simply makes no sense. In legal terms, it would be considered patently unreasonable. In my role as Commissioner, I provide advice to the Legislature on the nature of the legislation it should enact. If the Commissioner can be silenced for advising the Legislature on proposed legislation through such complaints, what about an MPP or the leader of the opposition? Not only is the position I have taken not discriminatory in any way, it is quite the opposite. It is designed to ensure that the Legislature strikes an effective balance and reflects the rights and interests of all concerned. The legislation reflected in Bill 183 – in whatever final form it takes – will of course be subject to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If the legislation faces a Charter challenge, the courts will necessary require that competing rights be considered and balanced. Today, my goal is to ensure that the voices of all parties are heard, and that privacy rights are not trampled upon as we move to openness. To silence the voices of the minority would indeed be a travesty – I will not ignore them, nor should the public or the Legislature. For further information: Media Contact: Bob Spence, Communications

Response:

Coalition for Open Adoption Records Wednesday, June 22, 2005 Adoptees File Human Rights Complaints against the Ontario Privacy Commissioner Sixteen adoptees have filed human rights complaints with the Ontario Human Rights Commission against Ann Cavoukian, Information and Privacy Commissioner in Ontario. They are alleging that the privacy commissioner intended to incite the infringement of the right to equal treatment because of family status – they are adopted. This is contrary to section 13 (1) of the Ontario Human Rights Code. The complaints are a response to the vigorous campaign the privacy commissioner has waged in the media against Bill 183, the Adoption Disclosure Act, that the Liberal government introduced in the Ontario legislature on March 29, 2005. Adopted people only want basic information about themselves. Adult adopted people, unlike all other Ontarians, are currently unable to have access to their original birth certificates. A birth certificate contains essential knowledge about one’s identity:

New homes for the bitties

admin — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

It sounds promising, especially with responsible parents and children who have apparently been taught how to treat animals gently. I think Flanagan and Lola have hit the jackpot! And they’ll have two hoomin playmates for kitten-appropriate fun and games. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which brings me on to Alfie. I have made the decision not to adopt him, simply because Cleo is having difficulty adjusting to the new addition. She’s terrified of the kittens to the point that yesterday she was pounced on by Alfie and she wet herself in fear. Lord alone knows what happened to her before I got her, to make her so hesitant and fraidy (she makes Pandora look brash and confident!) but I can’t take the risk that she won’t adapt – she’s having enough problems with the dog and she’s been around her for 6 months now. So, we have found a great home for Alfie – an older semi-retired couple who are looking to adopt a single kitten to rule their lives. ) They come to meet him tomorrow, so purrs would be gratefully recieved that they like each other. My house will be very quiet and very tidy this weekend. ( Helen M

I hope Alfie will be very happy with his new slaves. =o) ANd that they’ll be very happy with him. And Cleo will be able to relax, again.

Response:

Lots and lots of purrs and hugs for you, Helen, — Polonca & Soncek

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, Flanagan and Lola have found a great home. ) A family with 2 young boys of 8 & 10, who were very gentle and reserved when meeting the kittens. Mom and dad didn’t commit to the kittens as soon as they saw them – they had wanted one bitty, and I told them that Flan and Lola were a pair, so they went away to discuss the implications of 2 owners before saying yes. Anyway, they seem very nice, very concerned about the kittens and what having them entails, and I am happy with the home. Which brings me on to Alfie. I have made the decision not to adopt him, simply because Cleo is having difficulty adjusting to the new addition. She’s terrified of the kittens to the point that yesterday she was pounced on by Alfie and she wet herself in fear. Lord alone knows what happened to her before I got her, to make her so hesitant and fraidy (she makes Pandora look brash and confident!) but I can’t take the risk that she won’t adapt – she’s having enough problems with the dog and she’s been around her for 6 months now. So, we have found a great home for Alfie – an older semi-retired couple who are looking to adopt a single kitten to rule their lives. ) They come to meet him tomorrow, so purrs would be gratefully recieved that they like each other. My house will be very quiet and very tidy this weekend. ( Helen M — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

So, we have found a great home for Alfie – an older semi-retired couple who are looking to adopt a single kitten to rule their lives. ) They come to meet him tomorrow, so purrs would be gratefully recieved that they like each other. My house will be very quiet and very tidy this weekend. (

Such good news about Flan and Lola. Purrs that little Alfie finds a great home with this couple. — Regards and Purrs, O J

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, Flanagan and Lola have found a great home. ) A family with 2 young boys of 8 & 10, who were very gentle and reserved when meeting the kittens. Mom and dad didn’t commit to the kittens as soon as they saw them – they had wanted one bitty, and I told them that Flan and Lola were a pair, so they went away to discuss the implications of 2 owners before saying yes. Anyway, they seem very nice, very concerned about the kittens and what having them entails, and I am happy with the home. Which brings me on to Alfie. I have made the decision not to adopt him, simply because Cleo is having difficulty adjusting to the new addition. She’s terrified of the kittens to the point that yesterday she was pounced on by Alfie and she wet herself in fear. Lord alone knows what happened to her before I got her, to make her so hesitant and fraidy (she makes Pandora look brash and confident!) but I can’t take the risk that she won’t adapt – she’s having enough problems with the dog and she’s been around her for 6 months now. So, we have found a great home for Alfie – an older semi-retired couple who are looking to adopt a single kitten to rule their lives. ) They come to meet him tomorrow, so purrs would be gratefully recieved that they like each other. My house will be very quiet and very tidy this weekend. ( Helen M

That’s great news about Flanagan and Lola. I’m sure the couple will love Alfie at first sight. You’ve done a good job, I hope Cleo enjoys the , very quiet and very tidy house. — Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat.

Response:

Purrs on the way that this will be Alfie’s perfect forever-home! Hugs, CatNipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

aw, sad for you but everything sounds like things are falling into place. Please give Cleo extra love and skritches from us. Jazz & his mama — Irulan from the stars we come to the stars we return from now until the end of time

Response:

Well, Flanagan and Lola have found a great home. ) A family with 2 young boys of 8 & 10, who were very gentle and reserved when meeting the kittens. Mom and dad didn’t commit to the kittens as soon as they saw them – they had wanted one bitty, and I told them that Flan and Lola were a pair, so they went away to discuss the implications of 2 owners before saying yes. Anyway, they seem very nice, very concerned about the kittens and what having them entails, and I am happy with the home. Which brings me on to Alfie. I have made the decision not to adopt him, simply because Cleo is having difficulty adjusting to the new addition. She’s terrified of the kittens to the point that yesterday she was pounced on by Alfie and she wet herself in fear. Lord alone knows what happened to her before I got her, to make her so hesitant and fraidy (she makes Pandora look brash and confident!) but I can’t take the risk that she won’t adapt – she’s having enough problems with the dog and she’s been around her for 6 months now. So, we have found a great home for Alfie – an older semi-retired couple who are looking to adopt a single kitten to rule their lives. ) They come to meet him tomorrow, so purrs would be gratefully recieved that they like each other. My house will be very quiet and very tidy this weekend. ( Helen M — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

Sounds good. Adjustment purrs for all (including you with your quieter house). Suz&Spicey

Response:

Awww. Poor Cleo. Well, you have to think of her first. Purrs for an excellent connection with Alfie and the prospective slaves.

Response:

Could I adopt a child?

admin — Tue, 26 May 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Well there you go, we’ve just been talking about the IQ of the average working class American falling bellow 45 when along comes the evidence. RH 45? Don’t you think you are being a touch generous? M

Well maybe 35 in Clyde’s case, the point is though, it’s not the future, it’s not science fiction as we all thought. It’s here now today, Clyde Benson’s the living proof of it. With his moronic attitude to women, with his moronic attitude to anyone who’s different to him and his attempt to sell pointless URLs for $1/4 Million apiece when we can all resister completely pointless Internet addresses for as little as $25 each. Clyde should go back to from whence he came, alt.adoption.issues, with the rest of the real life "Marching Morons". Robin

Response:

Clyde should go back to from whence he came, alt.adoption.issues, with the rest of the real life "Marching Morons".

Robin I was just thinking the same thing myself.

Response:

Alright you dummies! you may have a good point for a change. You need to get your groups straight however. I came from Alt. adoption.searching. And that is where I am headed. Where it is now peaceful and harmonious. No longer full of the wild hyena packs that used to roam there a few months ago. I left for a while. So tell me what happened that caused you all to decide to move to a different forum? I think alt.adoption.issues is best for you folks who want to growl, scratch, and bite. Because there is no question that you all have major mental issues. The last time I took a test my IQ was 174 by the way. That is not as high as I had hoped, but it is better than being in the single digits like most of you Tubob! Clyde should go back to from whence he came, alt.adoption.issues, with the rest of the real life "Marching Morons". Robin I was just thinking the same thing myself.

Just one of those things that make you go hummmm. Who deserves to be impeached and imprisoned the most? A president receiving face from an adult willing female? Or a president who lies to over four billion people worldwide and then orders the attack and destruction of hundreds of thousands of innocents, 1,600 American GI’S killed and over 25,000 permanently disfigured? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nature_knows_no_color_lines http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Beautiful_Young_Females/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright you dummies! you may have a good point for a change. You need to get your groups straight however. I came from Alt. adoption.searching. And that is where I am headed. Where it is now peaceful and harmonious. No longer full of the wild hyena packs that used to roam there a few months ago. I left for a while. So tell me what happened that caused you all to decide to move to a different forum? I think alt.adoption.issues is best for you folks who want to growl, scratch, and bite. Because there is no question that you all have major mental issues. The last time I took a test my IQ was 174 by the way. That is not as high as I had hoped, but it is better than being in the single digits like most of you Tubob!

Uh, right. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. And if you’re so smart, you would have known better than to come here looking how to adopt a kid. — —— Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557 Science doesn’t burn people at the stake for disagreeing – Vic Sagerquist

Response:

Aside from the whackos like yourself that come and go, we lifers on a.a. are actually a pretty mellow bunch who get along surprisingly well given that we sometimes hold very different opinions. As for you, whistler, men don’t usually pull a biological clock from their ass which probably had no room anyway, given your head was there first. (the)duckster apar class of 98

Response:

Whoa! Put down the wine just in time — —— Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557 Science doesn’t burn people at the stake for disagreeing – Vic Sagerquist

Response:

"Protagoras" but mostly am curious if a single guy like myself could or should adopt?

Bringing a child into your home is not like adopting a puppy, though there are many similarities. By the read of your query it almost feels like you’re thinking "got everything else, why not a kid?" Hmmmm…. With women, it’s a maternal pull. Single, straight, guys nearly 50? You’re probably okay, but something about you makes the hair rise up on the back of my neck. (the)duckster apar class of 98 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

NO! First you need to go through lengthy therapy. Once you stop lusting after men’s filthy ass holes, and start being attracted to women as GOD and nature intends, then you might consider adopting. You still shouldn’t actually adopt until you are married to a WOMAN. In the mean time if you feel the need to mother something, adopt some of these savages on this forum. If they don’t provide enough mental and physical joy for you then go get a couple of kittens, or puppies and adopt them. They will keep you real busy. Wondering if I would stand a chance adopting a child. I guess I always figured that only couples can adopt. I am single, male, heterosexual, 48 years old, have had relationships but never married (came close a couple of times), financially very stable (full-time tenured college professor), unique in that I teach 100% online now so I would have time to be home and take care of a child and attend his/her school events and such. I know nothing about who can adopt, costs involved, but mostly am curious if a single guy like myself could or should adopt?

Three URL’S for Sale. Very similar names to www.wtatour.com, a huge international corporation www.wtatours.com www.wtatours.net and www.wtatours.org Buy all three for $450,000 or $250,000 each! Contact me by email http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nature_Knows_No_Color_Line/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO! First you need to go through lengthy therapy. Once you stop lusting after men’s filthy ass holes, and start being attracted to women as GOD and nature intends, then you might consider adopting. You still shouldn’t actually adopt until you are married to a WOMAN. In the mean time if you feel the need to mother something, adopt some of these savages on this forum. If they don’t provide enough mental and physical joy for you then go get a couple of kittens, or puppies and adopt them. They will keep you real busy.

What’s wrong, Clyde? Young and the Restless not on today?

Response:

Well there you go, we’ve just been talking about the IQ of the average working class American falling bellow 45 when along comes the evidence. RH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO! First you need to go through lengthy therapy. Once you stop lusting after men’s filthy ass holes, and start being attracted to women as GOD and nature intends, then you might consider adopting. You still shouldn’t actually adopt until you are married to a WOMAN. In the mean time if you feel the need to mother something, adopt some of these savages on this forum. If they don’t provide enough mental and physical joy for you then go get a couple of kittens, or puppies and adopt them. They will keep you real busy. Wondering if I would stand a chance adopting a child. I guess I always figured that only couples can adopt. I am single, male, heterosexual, 48 years old, have had relationships but never married (came close a couple of times), financially very stable (full-time tenured college professor), unique in that I teach 100% online now so I would have time to be home and take care of a child and attend his/her school events and such. I know nothing about who can adopt, costs involved, but mostly am curious if a single guy like myself could or should adopt? Three URL’S for Sale. Very similar names to www.wtatour.com, a huge international corporation www.wtatours.com www.wtatours.net and www.wtatours.org Buy all three for $450,000 or $250,000 each! Contact me by email http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nature_Knows_No_Color_Line/

Response:

No I watched all that today . I’m just lonely. When you have no family, or friends who invite you to their barbecues, or come to mine it gets a little sad. on certain holidays. I look two houses up the street and that man has eight kids and dozens of grandchildren. His yard is full of people. My best friend left out and headed back to Birmingham this afternoon. So it is just me and my felines. As I was watching my neighbors, I was thinking to myself how much fun they are having together. I then asked myself if I could do so would I be willing to give up the over seven years I spent living in Italy, and year in Thailand plus living in or traveling through 47 states, for a big family of my own. After thinking about that for a few minutes, I decided that I was really happy the way things were. If I had a big family and had never traveled outside of the Midwest like many of my neighbors, I think I would have really missed a lot of the world. Plus when time comes to divvy up the huge multi-mill estate there is no one around to get it but me. That should happen next summer at the latest. Then look for huge ads in the USA Today paper. I’m going to run ads looking for a human female between the ages of 17 and 25 who would be willing to have my child for me. I’m going to offer them $35,000 for starters and cover all their expenses. They have to be drug and alcohol free, between 62 and 68 inches tall, 100 and 150 pounds, no major mental, or physical deformities, or afflictions, Christian, and come from families that have no history of dying early from genetic flaws. They must not smoke anything other than cigars. I’ll have enough loot to pay five or six females to do that for me. The problem is I’m not sure there are five or six females in America who can fit those simple qualifications. If anyone refers the right type to me I will give them $10,000 for their efforts. It’s time for me to get busy and stop putting all of my apples in one cart. Do you think this might be possible? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO! First you need to go through lengthy therapy. Once you stop lusting after men’s filthy ass holes, and start being attracted to women as GOD and nature intends, then you might consider adopting. You still shouldn’t actually adopt until you are married to a WOMAN. In the mean time if you feel the need to mother something, adopt some of these savages on this forum. If they don’t provide enough mental and physical joy for you then go get a couple of kittens, or puppies and adopt them. They will keep you real busy. What’s wrong, Clyde? Young and the Restless not on today?

Response:

No I watched all that today . I’m just lonely. When you have no family, or friends who invite you to their barbecues, or come to mine it gets a little sad. on certain holidays.

Do you not reckon a little bit of effort on your part to become less unpleasant might be the cure for that problem? I look two houses up the street and that man has eight kids and dozens of grandchildren. His yard is full of people.

Yea, but he’s not the kind of miserable little shit that you are, is he? My best friend left out and headed back to Birmingham this afternoon. So it is just me and my felines. As I was watching my neighbors, I was thinking to myself how much fun they are having together. I then asked myself if I could do so would I be willing to give up the over seven years I spent living in Italy, and year in Thailand plus living in or traveling through 47 states, for a big family of my own.

Doesn’t matter where you go, if you’re a little shit you stay a little shit until YOU do something about it. After thinking about that for a few minutes, I decided that I was really happy the way things were.

No you’re not, I can see from here you’re a miserable little shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I had a big family and had never traveled outside of the Midwest like many of my neighbors, I think I would have really missed a lot of the world. Plus when time comes to divvy up the huge multi-mill estate there is no one around to get it but me. That should happen next summer at the latest. Then look for huge ads in the USA Today paper. I’m going to run ads looking for a human female between the ages of 17 and 25 who would be willing to have my child for me. I’m going to offer them $35,000 for starters and cover all their expenses. They have to be drug and alcohol free, between 62 and 68 inches tall, 100 and 150 pounds, no major mental, or physical deformities, or afflictions, Christian, and come from families that have no history of dying early from genetic flaws. They must not smoke anything other than cigars. I’ll have enough loot to pay five or six females to do that for me. The problem is I’m not sure there are five or six females in America who can fit those simple qualifications. If anyone refers the right type to me I will give them $10,000 for their efforts. It’s time for me to get busy and stop putting all of my apples in one cart. Do you think this might be possible?

I think perhaps you could have all that for free if you weren’t such a miserable little shit. Robin

Response:

Well there you go, we’ve just been talking about the IQ of the average working class American falling bellow 45 when along comes the evidence. RH

45? Don’t you think you are being a touch generous? M

Response:

Wondering if I would stand a chance adopting a child. I guess I always figured that only couples can adopt. I am single, male, heterosexual, 48 years old, have had relationships but never married (came close a couple of times), financially very stable (full-time tenured college professor), unique in that I teach 100% online now so I would have time to be home and take care of a child and attend his/her school events and such. I know nothing about who can adopt, costs involved, but mostly am curious if a single guy like myself could or should adopt?

Response:

Interesting question. You probably could adopt, particularly if you were adopting an older child. Whether you should is a different issue. Being a parent isn’t just an add-on to your existing life. It transforms it. Whether the transformed life is an improvement or a disaster depends very much on your point of view. Being a single parent doubles all the stakes. No one but you knows why your relationships with women didn’t work out, but if it was from a postponement of commitment, or because you need more space than you got in such a relationship — kids are an order of magnitude more demanding both of commitment and of space. Being an adoptive parent to an older child is also unlike just raising one you’ve had from birth – though that already has challenges. You have to be prepared to face them and do your best for the kid. There’s not much point in adopting unless you’re highly motivated. If you’re missing having young people in your life, perhaps you could try something like Big Brothers or even fostering a child? Or, if you have nieces/ nephews, becoming a more active uncle? Rupa

Response:

Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese

admin — Mon, 04 May 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ?Ati, in his book, ?The Family Structure in Islam? (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following: ?Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child.? In Islam, there is a clear recognition that ?while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable? (p. 193) and therefore, ?if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child?s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct.? Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, ?the stigma of illegitimacy? does not cling to the innocent child but to ?the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent.? You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur?an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him). In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from! Write back to us if you need further clarification. Allah knows best.

Contact "rent a father" at your local social service department…

Response:

I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA.

(Snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Welcome to America. Follow our laws or return to your sand dunes!

Response:

I hope he will find his real father

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents

Forget your past. Nobody wanted you, not your mother or your father. They didn’t give a crap about you. Your father wouldn’t raise you ar support you and your mother just screwed anything rhar came along as shown by the fact she screwed a muslem who are known for their usery of women and not giving a damnd about their children. Your father wouldn’t even take you in when your mother dumped you in the garbage. You have parents now that wanted you. they chose you from many other children and went to a lot of trouble and expense to adopt you. They are the ones who loved you, raised you, educated you, and taught you right from wrong. They made you the persom you are today. If Islam was right they would have taught you about Islam. Read this group and see what islam is like. Nothing but lies, twisted half truths and fiction all aimed at hiding the fact that they support terrorism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research.

You see, they are already trying to pass you off as not being a muslem. They don’t want you either. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker.

Didn’t deny it but still didn’t support you. A piece of garbage. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented,

In islam the father can repent but the woman is sentenced to death by stoning. You are interested in this religion? Why? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ‘Ati, in his book, "The Family Structure in Islam" (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following: "Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child." In Islam, there is a clear recognition that "while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable" (p. 193) and therefore, "if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child’s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct." Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, "the stigma of illegitimacy" does not cling to the innocent child but to "the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent."

Refer to the previous paragraph. You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead.

Why, would you like to be like your father. Do you know that if you you become a muslem, you are required to get your adoptive parents to convert to islam or kill them. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur’an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him).

He who screwed a 9 year old girl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from!

Yes learn about it, read the news papers as I am sure you have. Don’t forget that the quaran says it is ok to lie to people to get them to convert to islam. Write back to us if you need further clarification.

All one has to do is open their eyes and look at ANY islamic country and it will be absolutely clear that islam is nothing but a cover for terrorism. I have begged for years for islam to go out and rid it’self of terrorism and return itself to the rule of the true believers that live with peace love and understanding instead of for the taste of blood on their lips. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allah knows best.

Response:

juno forger

NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.73.167.78 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al ?Ati, in his book, ?The Family Structure in Islam? (American Trust Publications, 1977) states the following: ?Muslims maintain that illicit relationships constitute a grave offence against God as well as against society. Part of the penalty for this offence is to deny to the guilty the fruits of their liaison. Following this logic, parenthood should be denied to both the man and the woman, who are equally responsible for the conception of the child.? In Islam, there is a clear recognition that ?while the paternity can be subject to doubt, maternity is usually unmistakable? (p. 193) and therefore, ?if it is established that the child was conceived out of wedlock, then the child?s descent will derive from the mother only, while the adulterer [fornicator], the father, will be denied paternity as a punitive measure for his misconduct.? Customarily, a child is given the last name of his or her father but in this case, your mother would have the right to give you her last name, preserving for time immemorial the circumstances of your birth out of wedlock. However, ?the stigma of illegitimacy? does not cling to the innocent child but to ?the guilty parents, and its effects shall not be allowed to hurt the innocent.? You were adopted and all praise is due to Allah that you are attempting to rediscover your birthparents. Our suggestion to you is that you try to find out more about your father, but if he does not reciprocate, then you should not feel rejected, but go one step further and explore the religion of Islam instead. You will find that Allah is merciful and all-knowing. Allah does not hold you responsible for anything related to your birth out of wedlock. So you have in effect an open invitation to learn more about Allah, the religion of Islam, the revelation called the Qur?an, and the last prophet from Allah to mankind, Prophet Muhammad, (Peace and Blessings Upon Him). In accepting that invitation with an open heart and mind, you will be setting forth on a journey to reclaim what is known in Islam as your fitrah(natural innocence). In Islam, every single baby born, is considered to be born in a pure, sinless, state regardless of whether the baby was born to a married couple or an unmarried couple, or whether the baby was born to a Muslim couple or a couple of another faith. Allah has willed that all children come into this world pure and free of sins. So go and reclaim your fitrah and start living life anew. If during your journey you discover that Islam is the religion for you, then be sure that even as an adult, Allah forgives all of your previous sins up to the point that you declare your submission to Him and become a Muslim! We wish you the best and strongly recommend that you try to learn more about Islam. If your father is a Muslim, then it is an obligation upon you to learn more about Islam, because that is how you will come to know where you came from! Write back to us if you need further clarification. Allah knows best.

Here good advise for you juno

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.73.167.2 I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my father

Now I understand why he is angry? juno forger is ibin Haram. If you can help juno forger find his abandon father give him call to the nearest shelter.. Here the imposter juno forger tag number 67.73.167.2

Response:

Adopted, But Birthfather Is Lebanese I was adopted in 1969. My birthmother told me about my birthfather. He was from Lebanon. He had just arrived in the USA. He was contacted a year ago by a social worker. At that time he said he was not able to connect, but would talk to his God. I wrote him a note a few months ago. Not sure if he got it, but he did not reply. My question: How is this looked upon? He had sex with a non-Muslim woman while not married and created a baby. And that baby was put up for adoption. I just need some information so I know if being Muslim makes things worse for him. I want to know about who I came from. I would appreciate any insight in this matter. Help me to deal with my parents Answer By the Counsellor Abdullah Abdur Rahman Thank you for writing to us. You have taken a great step forward in inquiring about your birthparents, and then going one step further in inquiring about your Lebanese father. First and foremost, you need to verify with your mother that in fact your father was a Muslim. Why do we say that? Because the population of Lebanon, according to various sources, is approximately 70 percent Muslim and 30 percent Christian. So it is possible that your father was Christian and not Muslim. It is possible that your father is a Muslim, and we hope that you will verify this before doing further research. He is responsible for his actions, whether he is a Christian or a Muslim; although, as a Muslim he has clear guidance regarding his obligations towards you, and the rights you can demand from him. As a matter of principle, you should also do your best to establish whether this particular man is your father. From what you have written it seems clear that he is your father because he did not deny this fact to the social worker. Since you are wondering about your father and how his religion factors into his current relationship with you, we want to help you understand how Islam views the circumstances of your life. Let us suppose this Lebanese man is a Muslim and he is your father. He had a pre-marital relationship with a non-Muslim woman and you were born as a result of that relationship In Islam, based on what we know so far, your father is considered guilty of fornication, (illicit sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons). Fornication is considered one of the major sins in Islam and unless your father has repented, he is subject to the punishment of Allah in this life and in the hereafter. Considering fornication, it does not matter whether or not your mother was a Muslim, it just matters that the two people were both unmarried. It is suitable that we quote here from a book on the family in Islam. Hammudah Abd Al

Considering Adoption

admin — Fri, 01 May 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

Yes, children don’t belong to nym-shifting assholes. Drop it at the nearest police station after you’ve sprogged. — —— Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557 Science doesn’t burn people at the stake for disagreeing – Vic Sagerquist

Response:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

This early in the situation, I’d hope adoption is only one of the options you’re considering? But good on you for starting to think about it. Some people just push it out of their minds until the last minute, and then all plans, all decisions, get made under the awful pressure of having to do something right away. I’d say the jury is out on open vs. closed adoptions. Most people think that open adoptions are better for the kid, but they can be hard on the mother, at least in the early months/ years. If you do plan on an open adoption — try to define, quite carefully, what you mean by ‘open.’ Are you thinking of visiting the child frequently? Or are you thinking of letters and photographs? In most states in the US (I am assuming you’re in the US, this may be different if not), there is no way to enforce open adoption. So, for instance, if the people who adopt a baby change their minds about letting the birth mother see the child — there’s no way to make them. Equally, if they have an arrangement that the birth mother visits, say, 4 times a year, and she suddenly decides she doesn’t want to do that any more — there’s no way to force contact either. I’m an a-mom with a closed adoption. My own personal view is that if one has an open adoption, with personal contact (visits), then it’s particularly important between the ages of about 5, say, and 20, that one should be willing to keep in touch. I think it would be very hurtful for the child if it comes to expect you to visit, perceives the birthmother as something more than just a visiting aunt, and then the birthmother cuts off contact. From what I’ve read, those breaks in contact usually happen when

there’s a life change for the birthmother (new marriage, relocation); when she finds it emotionally unbearable (though usually this is earlier on — say 0-5) to see her child as someone else’s child; or when she is disrespected (or feels she has been disrespected) by the adopting family. Whatever the reason, it can be hard on the kid. Of course, breaks can also occur when the adopting family for some reason breaks contact. That may be something uncontrollable from the birthmother’s viewpoint, and can be heartbreaking. When an open adoption goes well, I think it appears to be a good experience for all concerned. Several of the a-parents on this ng have experience with open adoptions and warm relationships. Take a look at adoption.com It’s a moderated board, but it does have quite a few discussions of experiences from every perspective. Rupa

Response:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

Response:

I am two months pregnant and considering adoption. Can anyone tell me about open and closed adoption and which is better for the childs sake?

I suggest you quit dreaming and get some serious counseling. It is still early in your pregnancy. Please be sure you take the time to think things through completely! — KL Your argument is sound, nothing but sound. -Benjamin Franklin —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

abolish adoption

admin — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

For anyone truly interested in current first person accounts of orphanage life, two of the best books I’ve seen are: The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage by Richard McKenzie and Where Courage Is Like a Wild Horse: The World of an Indian Orphanage by Sharon Skolnick. And for a fictionalized account of the Hebrew Home for Boys in NYC, see DAVE AT NIGHT by someone whose name I can’t remember … but she won a Newbery Award for another children’s book. I think the main problem with institutionalized care is that "good" is so rarely an appropriate modifier. Financial factors tend to separate the two. Best wishes. Sue T. A new dream: the best interests of and full equality for adoptees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For anyone truly interested in current first person accounts of orphanage life, two of the best books I’ve seen are: The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage by Richard McKenzie and Where Courage Is Like a Wild Horse: The World of an Indian Orphanage by Sharon Skolnick. And for a fictionalized account of the Hebrew Home for Boys in NYC, see DAVE AT NIGHT by someone whose name I can’t remember … but she won a Newbery Award for another children’s book. I think the main problem with institutionalized care is that "good" is so rarely an appropriate modifier. Financial factors tend to separate the two. Best wishes. Sue T. A new dream: the best interests of and full equality for adoptees.

Here are excerpts from two recent articles on an institutional effort in Minnesota, with urls for those who would like the complete articles: J. Published: Sunday, May 7, 2000 MODELED ON BOYS TOWN Children’s futures drive Copeland’s dream If enough people think of a thing and work hard enough at it, I guess it’s pretty nearly bound to happen, wind and weather permitting. “On the Shores of Silver Lake” by Laura Ingalls Wilder, (1939) Hang out with Mary Jo Copeland for any amount of time, and you’ll leave thinking she’s the wind, weather and a crowd of determined people. Copeland, who founded Sharing & Caring Hands in Minneapolis, has announced plans for a children’s home in Brooklyn Center. The children, ages about 4 to 11, will be residents of the apartment-like building comprising two wings and including a gym, library and large communal kitchen. The kids will live eight to an apartment with an adult. The home will be administered by a religious order of nuns. Copeland compares the residence to Omaha’s Boys Town, Father Flanagan’s home for orphans and wayward youth. Most will have parents who are living. But the spirit of Boys Town will be carried forward, she hopes, where throwaway children come into a caring, enriching and stable environment for the first time in their young lives. Major funding for the $24 million project will come from the Target Corporation and other business sponsors. Hoops yet to be cleared include zoning approvals for the home from the Brooklyn Center City Council. For the rest of the story: http://www.pioneerplanet.com/search?NS-search-page=document&NS-rel-do… e=/opinion/docs/030522.htm&NS-query=%22caring+hands%22&NS-search-type=NS-b oolean-query&NS-collection=PioneerPlanet&NS-docs-matched=6&NS-doc-number=2 and Published: Thursday, May 11, 2000 DeborahLocke Editorial Writer A change of heart Mary Jo Copeland won’t take no for an answer. Her latest plan to build a children’s home in Brooklyn Center is meeting civic opposition, but she says she can win over the opponents and she won’t be put off. Today’s installment in this yearlong series on the homeless represents a change of pace. So far, we have profiled individuals with an emphasis on the events that make a person homeless. This week, inspired by news events, I decided to focus on an entire class of people who are homeless: children. Since January, I’ve seen kids in meal lines with parents or in waiting facilities during the day. At night, I’ve seen children with their parents as they prepared them for sleep in a homeless shelter when family residences were filled to capacity. Mary Jo Copeland, founder and director of Sharing & Caring Hands in Minneapolis, sees hundreds of these children each month. Many are from Ramsey County. After almost 15 years of working with the poor through her charity organization, she started efforts to build a children’s home in Brooklyn Center to bring kids stability, discipline and love. Challenges lie ahead. Brooklyn Center has not exactly opened its arms to her. The city of 28,000 north of Minneapolis has a comprehensive zoning plan that specifies what can be built where. Copeland says she has a comprehensive reality: 200 homeless, parentless kids. She purchased six acres of land adjacent to the Earle Brown Heritage Center, and hopes to complete the project there and begin admitting children the summer of 2002. Blueprints depict an apartment-like complex for around 190 children; later the buildings could be expanded to hold 256 children, if the need arose. The idea is to keep siblings in large families together, something the foster system rarely accomplishes. The kids would live eight to an apartment, two to a bedroom, with a supervising adult who may be a member of a religious order. Copeland and city officials are trying to schedule a meeting soon to review the site plans. A public hearing probably will follow. The reaction from Brooklyn Center residents has been very negative, said City Manager Michael McCauley. From the city’s perspective, doubts exist about the density restrictions for the area that is zoned for commercial use. Additionally, how will the school district accommodate more kids in light of its current space crunch? For the rest of the story: http://www.pioneerplanet.com/search?NS-search-page=document&NS-rel-do… e=/opinion/ocl_docs/001818.htm&NS-query=%22caring+hands%22&NS-search-type= NS-boolean-query&NS-collection=PioneerPlanet&NS-docs-matched=6&NS-doc-numbe r=1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin

Response:

Linda, Are you really backing this petition? Do you really believe we should abolish adoption? Just wondering. Nancy, –Not only no, but HELL NO! Lori and I had a couple of emails on Open Records, and Baby Dumping. I told her I *fully* supported her in that –

Why not? Are there any studies that show adoptive/foster families are better for children than good institutionalization?

Response:

I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin

Response:

It’s neat to find someone here who’s actually done the research. Would the outcomes differ by the age of the child? There are a lot of people who voluntarily institutionalise their children by sending them to boarding schools for 9 months of the year. Of course it’s not the same thing at all, and yet maybe that’s a paradign for how a good institution might work. Or is it a matter of the child believing that there is someone, some adult, to whom its welfare is extremely important? Rupa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to get in the middle of a very contentious string, and I don’t favour abolishing adoption here or in the U.S. but would you mind giving all of us an idea of what you mean by "good institutionalization?" I have done extensive research on one of the oldest here, based in Bristol, and they’ve long since moved from institutionalisation to group homes. As for the outcomes of adoption, and whether it is more favourable than the mythical "good institutionalisation," BAAF and others here and one would suppose plenty of people in the US claim to have data that, for most people, simply confirms what common sense tells us. Mums and dads are better than the best-paid keepers of large groups, even in specialised situations in the kibbutzim. T. I. Catwin

Response:

Linda, Are you really backing this petition? Do you really believe we should abolish adoption? Just wondering.

Nancy, –Not only no, but HELL NO! Lori and I had a couple of emails on Open Records, and Baby Dumping. I told her I *fully* supported her in that – and everything else she is doing for that matter. Somehow, abolish adoption came in to the equation. I can’t in my wildest imagination understand why anyone would want to do that. But, I have been busy with personal issues, and I have had like 30 emails from Lori and Jeep in the last couple of days, and I have over 2,500 unanswered emails sitting in here. I should have at least glanced at them. I’m only answering this to you right now because of the subject line. And I, unfortunately, will be answering a bunch of them in the next few days. Which will take me away from my mission on getting Medicaid on the side of getting rid of baby dumping. But I want you all to know where I stand. –I have asked her to explain to my why we would want to abolish it, and I am not clear on the answer. Something about conservative person or guardianship. I don’t know. But I guess by the end of the day I will know.

Response:

PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents.

Except that the child is not necessarily placed with one family in a permanent arrangement. A colleague "fostered" a 10 year old boy who had been with his original foster family since he was a year old. (The foster family decided to give him up to avoid the difficult teen years, and besides he was getting in the way of an overseas trip they were hanging out for. They obviously did not commit to him for the long haul of parenting.) He was unattached and showing signs of major emotional disorders which is hardly a surprise. Things may have been different if he had the emotional security of a committed adoptive family from his earliest days in the "care" system. Another kid I met through the school system was on her fourth foster placement since her mother had died when she was a toddler. (She was 10 years old) M

Response:

Oops, I missed these two replies. Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed. And yet adoptions continue to occur.

Yes they do but they longer encourage adoptions as a first option being in the long term interest of the child. In Oz it’s now the last option when all other alternatives are unavailable. The Oz Govt doesn’t have a say in the manner in which other countries adoption counselling and procedures occur. We only have a right to exploit them. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965. So it isn’t only private infant adoptions that were outlawed.

All privately arranged adoptions that were often ‘done behind the dunny door’ were outlawed, regardless of the child’s age.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents. Except that the child is not necessarily placed with one family in a permanent arrangement. A colleague "fostered" a 10 year old boy who had been with his original foster family since he was a year old. (The foster family decided to give him up to avoid the difficult teen years, and besides he was getting in the way of an overseas trip they were hanging out for. They obviously did not commit to him for the long haul of parenting.) He was unattached and showing signs of major emotional disorders which is hardly a surprise. Things may have been different if he had the emotional security of a committed adoptive family from his earliest days in the "care" system. Another kid I met through the school system was on her fourth foster placement since her mother had died when she was a toddler. (She was 10 years old) M

You are confusing permanent placement with foster care. Two entirely different setups. Unlike foster care, permanent placement is a legal arrangement. Adoption holds no assurances either. While the adoption remains permanent on paper it doesn’t assure the child of a permanent relationship with their adopters. No piece of paper can guarantee security. Only the quality of the relationship can do that.

Response:

Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. 73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247… Yes–year over year, adoptions seem to be increasing.

The combined number of O/S and local adoptions only adds up to around 500 Oz wide in total at this point. Down from even a decade ago. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Do you mean permanent care orders? I believe that it is one of the institutions.

PCO’s isn’t an institution. It’s the permanent placement of a ‘child’ into a family who cannot be raised by its own parents. It’s much like adoption without the state owning the child’s identity, removing his legal status and relationship to his own family members, denying him his medical history etc as is the case in adoption. He remains a member of both families with his guardians bearing the responsibiliy of all the decision making during his childhood. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz. Private adoptions are.

Privately ‘arranged’ adoption always have been. Private adoption ‘agencies’ licenced by the state still exist. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Yes we do. We know what’s officially recorded.

True. But then if they’re not officially recorded, they’re not adoptions.

Response:

Kindly explain to me how my daughter would be better off growing up in a third world orphanage as opposed to having two loving parents. In other words, you are painting with too broad a brush. I am not dismissing what you’ve written here at all. I merely want to point out that in this imperfect world adoption can be beneficial to children Linda PS Ask kids in foster care if they would like to remain in foster care or be adopted.

Response:

And yet adoptions continue to occur. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965.

So it isn’t only private infant adoptions that were outlawed. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. 73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247…

Yes–year over year, adoptions seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Do you mean permanent care orders?

I believe that it is one of the institutions. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz.

Private adoptions are. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Yes we do.

We know what’s officially recorded.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder.

Aren’t you waving to the parade after it’s passed by? The experiment’s over. It was called infant adoption. It failed. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there.

Privately arranged adoptions were outlawed in Australia in 1965. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing.

73 local adoption occurred last year in Australia, down form 78 the previous year. Intercountry adoptions are increasing though. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,1150247… And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption.

Do you mean permanent care orders? Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created.

Adoption isn’t prohibited in Oz. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?

Yes we do.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear. I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia? Private adoptions in Australia have not recently been prohibited. They have been illegal for many decades and to the best of my knowledge were not associated with any reduction in domestic adoptions. There has never been any prohibition on adoptions here and no reason to believe there has been a black market created in adoptions. Rather the numbers of children available for adoption fell dramatically from the early 1970s after the Whitlam government introduced benefits for single mothers raising their children, social attitudes changed, abortion and birth control became more readily available, step-parent adoptions were discouraged, and states such as Victoria introduced alternative provisions such as permanent care orders which took the place of adoption orders for some children. For details on the number of adoptions occurring in Australia currently and over the last few decades see the annual publication produced by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare called "Adoptions Australia" http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/aa03-04/aa03-04.pdf Last year saw an overall increase of 6% in the numbers of children adopted in Australia. Intercountry adoptions increased by 33% and domestic adoptions fell. I believe intercountry adoptions are continuing to increase substantially. Two weeks ago I spoke at one of our bi-annual information days for prospective intercountry adoptive parents. We had double the number of prospective applicants than we’d previously had, and as a response to that increased interest our govt Adoption Unit has had to schedule two intake seminars for May and July rather than the usual one seminar.

Thank you for the clarifications. Certainly, the things you mention are one way of looking at the fall in intracountry adoptions and are the facts that tend to be emphasized by the Australian government. The government’s strong policy to discourage such adoptions is another way of looking at it. Clearly, from the facts you recite, there remains a strong interest in adoption. I would be surprised if adoption is the one area in which a government prohibition was not complemented by some kind of black market.

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Could be. But it’s still very early in the Australian experiment, and there are some things about it that make me wonder. The recent legal prohibition on private adoptions is implicated in the reduction in adoptions there. Yet, adoptions still occur, and year-over-year seem to be increasing. And there are other institutions that are playing some of the same role as adoption. Finally, the one thing that we know happens when a government prohibits something is that a black market is created. Do we know, for sure, how many adoptions are occurring in Australia?

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No it won’t die. I just came back from let’s say…. hanging with the industry…and what I saw was staggering in it’s paranoia and fear. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Private adoptions in Australia have not recently been prohibited. They have been illegal for many decades and to the best of my knowledge were not associated with any reduction in domestic adoptions. There has never been any prohibition on adoptions here and no reason to believe there has been a black market created in adoptions. Rather the numbers of children available for adoption fell dramatically from the early 1970s after the Whitlam government introduced benefits for single mothers raising their children, social attitudes changed, abortion and birth control became more readily available, step-parent adoptions were discouraged, and states such as Victoria introduced alternative provisions such as permanent care orders which took the place of adoption orders for some children. For details on the number of adoptions occurring in Australia currently and over the last few decades see the annual publication produced by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare called "Adoptions Australia" http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/aa03-04/aa03-04.pdf Last year saw an overall increase of 6% in the numbers of children adopted in Australia. Intercountry adoptions increased by 33% and domestic adoptions fell. I believe intercountry adoptions are continuing to increase substantially. Two weeks ago I spoke at one of our bi-annual information days for prospective intercountry adoptive parents. We had double the number of prospective applicants than we’d previously had, and as a response to that increased interest our govt Adoption Unit has had to schedule two intake seminars for May and July rather than the usual one seminar. Julia

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You mean he wishes you were his family but can’t see you as such? Do you both have the same bio-dad? He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean?

He sounds pretty odd…if he’s well-off enough to own two houses, one wouldn’t think he’d be stealing. Could be pathological, I guess. so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess!

That sounds deranged. Did his bio-dad have mental health problems? As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not

involved, You do realize that isn’t precisely the normal procedure? I’m not sure what the purpose would be. Did it happen, to your mother’s knowledge, all across Australia, or only at certain hospitals or in certain states? for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative.

That’s not what foster kids say, though. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.

No, not at all. We do have people affected by adoption — adoptees, birthparents, adoptive parents — discussing various related topics, and a good many unrelated ones. Attitudes to adoption range from unreservedly for to equally unreservedly against. I’m not sure if there’s a critical mass of "kept kids" who want to discuss this their adopted siblings. You could try adoption.com — it’s a moderated group, and gets quite a range of traffic. You’re welcome to stick around here, for that matter — we used to be the scariest ng on Usenet, but we’re mellower now, and you may not even need this virtual Flame-retardant armor… Rupa

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Could you expand on that a little? I know they have reason to be apprehensive, given the conflicts and other problems that are built into what they do.

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I wouldn’t altogether dismiss the idea that it’ll eat its self to death. It’s all but disappeared in Australia and it’s none too healthy in the UK despite Prime Minister Blair’s personal attempts to revive it (we used to put about one in every 30 born up for adoption in the late 60s, step parent adoptions included but still adoptions). I make no personal comment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Robin

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is. He is drinking himself into the dirt, and he gets into trouble for awful things- he beats people up a lot, especially asians, and steals off people, drunk driving, etc. Knowing my mother and her story, living with the people that adopted him and comparing that life with what he sees when he comes to Perth is such a huge, strange paradox for him – understandably, of course. He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean? He is so used to suppressing his wishes, or true ideals, it is easy for him to think one thing and do the other – sorry, I’m not explaining anything right today; All I’m saying is that on the surface and deep down he has a confusion that he can see we don’t have, so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess! As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not involved, I’ve just been able to witness the flip side of the coin, so to speak. I am 100% against adoption, however, there are always special circumstances, and for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.

Are you by any chance the scriptwriter for ‘Home and Away’? You’re just giving an idea a test run here, is that it? Robin

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Institutions morph. They seek to fix themselves, albeit the fix generally creates altogether new problems. When an institution serves enough positive functions, as this one does, it’s unlikely to disappear.

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My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch.

I had heard about hospital kidnappings, but not that branding was part of the procedure? certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with.

Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa

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Do you mean your birth-father? What did happen to him? Rupa

No, I don’t mean my birth father, I’m not adopted; I mean my brother that I didn’t grow up with ( he is 29 now, 18 when I met him- hence, man). He is very lost and confused, he sort of hates us and likes us a lot. He is exactly like my mother, and he and I look exactly alike – he is lost because we understand him and he didn’t grow up with that kind of – closeness? that isn’t the right word, but I don’t know what is. He is drinking himself into the dirt, and he gets into trouble for awful things- he beats people up a lot, especially asians, and steals off people, drunk driving, etc. Knowing my mother and her story, living with the people that adopted him and comparing that life with what he sees when he comes to Perth is such a huge, strange paradox for him – understandably, of course. He tries to make it equal by speaking to my mothers family – God knows why, they’re horrible people, but anyway, he doesn’t speak to us because he doesn’t understand how we can be so poor, and still be happy, when he has strived for finance and owns two houses and is so miserable- do you know what I mean? He is so used to suppressing his wishes, or true ideals, it is easy for him to think one thing and do the other – sorry, I’m not explaining anything right today; All I’m saying is that on the surface and deep down he has a confusion that he can see we don’t have, so he always calls my mother to say he will come back to chop her into pieces, then tells her how much he loves her- what a mess! As for this weird branding thing, I know my mother and a frightening number of other relinguishing mothers (and for 29 years, she hasn’t stopped talking to other mothers) have the exact same mark in the same place, but I don’t ask my mother about her genitals, this is just one of the many, many sad things to do with adoption and I am not involved, I’ve just been able to witness the flip side of the coin, so to speak. I am 100% against adoption, however, there are always special circumstances, and for these I think fostering is a much less destructive alternative. Sorry to go on – I was hoping this was a website for people like myself, with ghost brothers or sisters- obviously not.

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If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there. You appear to be posting from Western Australia. I thought domestic infant adoption had almost totaly ceased in Australia some years ago. Robin

Doh! Someone from Origins must have internet prvileges! The good news… serial killings and suicides are down 87% in Australia since the death of infant adoption. Dad

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Dont’ worry. The adoption industry is eating itself. We can jsut sit back and watch. Marley

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gee.. i;m sorry that you and your mother had such horrid experiences.. i certainly don’t condone what she went through, but there are also plenty of people out there for whom adoption has been a blessing.. on all sides… no one promises that every adoption will be wonderful.. no one promises that every birth family will be wonderful….

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No. it still happens, just not very often M

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.

Ooooooooooooooookay. — Robyn Resident Witchypoo #1557

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You appear to be posting from Western Australia. I thought domestic infant adoption had almost totaly ceased in Australia some years ago. Robin

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I am 26 years old and I have been anti adoption my whole life – this makes things difficult for me, when 99.9% of everyone thinks adoption is a wonderfully kind act of love, considering these women "give away their babies". Actually, they don’t. What happens is that there is a HUGE DEMAND for babies. It would be fine if there really were millions of mothers giving away their babies, but there’s not. To reach these disgusting demands, it is necessary to go to the poorest places, and take their babies: to find a confused young woman and brainwash her into giving her child "the care it deserves… if you love this child…" It’s also ridiculously easy to drug someone and get them to sign papers. My mother was pregnant at 19. She had money, a nice room with baby furniture. Being Catholic, she went to church, and visits with the doctor and social worker. After going into labour, she didn’t expect to be left unattended, have her baby taken off her, put onto drugs to dry her milk, and finally branded ( on her pussy) like a witch. It’s been about 29 years since that day – she hasn’t gotten over it, or dealt with it. She handled a horribly abusive childhood, and a head-on collision, but not her baby taken away; not the complete lack of sympathy and understanding; not the evergrowing worldwide demand for babies and certainly not the shock of meeting her son when he was 18, and actually seeing what adoption did to the man I should have grown with. My mother hasn’t stopped researching or talking about adoption, so admittedly I’m completely bored and depressed with the whole subject, but there’s so much I know about it, with no-one to talk to. In fairy tales, a witch would always demand the child [rapunzel, etc], but now these baby snatchers are so, so adored… Angelina Jolie is held in such high regard, even while people know that childs mother is so desperate to have her son – how can she compete against hollywood wealth? I notice no-one tries to adopt broken old men, or drug addicts- people who really would benefit from a different life. There are facts about adoption that I never see in the news or on television- Like, 85% of serial killers are adopted; the frighteningly high suicide rate of adoptees; the amount of money adoption agencys make; the varying cost of babies: And the emotional effect on the seperation of mother and child. My mothers story is no different. I live in a world where so many people want to adopt, and EVERYONE works to make it happen. After all it’s only a mother and her child that’s at stake, right? It is sad that some people can’t have children, but if someone has no arm, do you see them tearing off somebody elses? Is loving a child enough to fuck with it’s entire sense of identity? As for all of these" millions of orphans" what is wrong with them staying in their own family? If you truly want to help, would it occur to give a poor family some money? of course not , for some ugly reason, it’s just totally acceptable to steal a womans child and be applauded for it. I used to get so angry talking about adoption, but now I just get this strange flatness- people just aren’t aware of what adoption is, and nothing changes their opinions because SOCIETY has always described it in a certain way- loving people caring for unwanted children, as opposed to unrelenting greed for a child that already does have a mother. If there is a hell, I know that baby snatchers will be there.

Response:

Harried Halloween – vibes needed please.

admin — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Response:

Chip schreef: Conclusions Treatment with *SSRIs is associated with symptomatic improvement in depression by the end of the first week of use*, and the improvement continues at a decreasing rate for at least 6 weeks. The keyword here, I think, is *depression*.

I don’t know which responds faster to an SSRI, depression or anxiety. Since they both tend to go together, maybe at the same rate. I know a number of people suffering from depression who indeed noticed improvement within a week although rarely very much improvement. I have met one or two anxiety sufferers who had positive experiences within a few days and read (don’t remember where) that this occurs occasionally.

When I first tried Zoloft 14 years ago for depression, I had a response (marked improvement) within the first week. I always thought it was the placebo effect. Until I read the above abstract a month or two ago. After two weeks on Zoloft the depression was GONE. Which is a strange sensation: going from very depressed to NO depression over the course of 2 weeks. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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I can’t imagine how scary that must have been, thank god she only got a little scrape. I don’t trust any dog with a child, zero. So many times things worse have happened and they say the dog was always great with kids. A dog is a dog is a dog. There is no way to tell which one will one day attack. My Daughter is very careful with her dog around the baby but still it always scares me since he is one hell of a giant golden retriever. Same when my granddaughter was around my little boston terrier. She is the sweetest most loving dog you can imagine, but I don’t trust her with children, it’s just not worth the risk, no matter how small that risk is. Sorry if this sounded like a lecture, I didn’t mean it to. Sending tons Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Oh Sally, what a lot of stressors at once! Regarding the dog, I hope a good home is found for him. He was probably scared or surprised by the neck hug. I hope Claire is okay. Since we know the hormonal problem will subside, that’s a one-day-at-a-time situation. Just breathe You’ll do fine. There is nothing in this situation that won’t get better. Hugs, Deirdre

Yeah, but you know me. I don’t have just *ONE* life altering event – I seem to have 2, sometimes 3 or 4 at once, Claire’s fine. She’s as beautiful as ever, and as ornery. We are calming down. Halloween was a scary one for us, but not in the usual "fun" way. It sort of sucked… I just hope Monster is able to be placed in a home that wants him – he’s a good dog, but I don’t think any dog is going to be part of my kids’ household for a very long time. That was too scary. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though) I read a medical article recently that reported the results of a study, and said SSRIs start working in one week. Meaning some improvement is noted after only 7 days. Full effect takes longer to reach. The article noted this was contrary to the usual spiel which goes something like "takes 2 to 4 weeks to work and up to 8 weeks" and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. Maybe he snapped at her as a warning. Dogs can’t talk. Our beagle was sitting at my mother’s feet while she was eating breakfast, and I patted the beagles back, and she snapped at me cause she thought I’d interfere with her obtaining food. (food is very important to beagles…..they’re highly motivated by food). The beagle didn’t want to harm or hurt me. Just warn me. In any case, I hope every thing settles down, Sally. You and your family are in my prayers. Chip

Chip, Maybe Paul is feeling the medication already. You can read what I wrote to Philip concerning him.. it is difficult for me to really know if he’s truly feeling better or just wants to so bad he is -doesn’t really make a difference I guess. Just so he gets some relief. I am proud of him, he does so much, and he is in an estrogen rich environment – wife, 2 daughters and grandmas hanging out all the time. He is a good kid, he just needs to learn how to unwind and not worry so much. Many dogs are food aggressive. I have often watched Animal Planet and they won’t place a food aggressive dog – but I grew up with a dog that was food aggressive (standard Poodle).. My Dakota will act that way ONLY if she’s got something REAL good.. like a steak bone. I mean, primo stuff. She doesn’t care one bit if I walk up and stick my hand in her food bowl , she’s not that way unless it’s something she just loves.. Dogs are all about dominance and submission. Dakota knows the command "Drop!" and she knows to let go of whatever it is when we say so. If she growls at me - ever – immediately, I remove whatever it is that she is trying to protect and I get her to lay down and show me her belly.. IOW..submit.. As soon as she does, she gets her goodie back, but NOT until she realizes she is not the one in charge. I feel a need to have to do this. She is half Rotweiller, and I am not going to be anything other than pack leader with her. This works well for dogs that want to run and jump on people too – I learned it on the "Dog Whisperer" – if you don’t establish dominance, they will try to… and I spent months allowing her to walk ME around the condo complex, until I learned to teach her to submit, and I’ve not had a problem with either the walking nor the food aggression since. –And this was not a growl.. it was the sound of a dog attacking, even though he didn’t fully attack ,nor will he ever get the chance to.. it was bad. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

vibes, please. Mine are vibing across the Atlantic even as we speak. Philip

Oh my! Across the Atlantic?? Men so exaggerate!! This is why they are the ones that can read maps – only a man can conceive of one inch/cm = 1mile/meter LOL – thanks for the mending thoughts, my friend. I think Monster was warning, not truly attacking Claire, but he was not kidding even a little bit. As Margrove noted – Monster could have ripped Claire’s face off and he did not. However… the tone of his voice coulda fooled anyone. This was not a mild "cut that out" growl. this was an "I’m eating your face" … noise.. is the only way I can describe it . It was the sound of a dog in a vicious fight, and nothing we can let within any proximity to the kids, ever again. That was the end of his home at their house, for sure. Not a bit pleasant. He’s been a very good dog, but for all we know, it might not have been a warning, it could have been a real attack, and nobody wanted to wait for that to happen. Let’s hope he finds a good home – I think he’d be fine in most any home that didn’t have toddlers pulling on him. As to the med, maybe Paul is beginning to feel a change.. I don’t trust him to know, LOL. My boy is a bit of a hypochondriac and I think he exaggerates his physical feelings. We’ve not rechecked his BP and need to – in the doctor’s office, it was running at 150/100 – it had been running around 130/90 range. I don’t have BP problems, and his dad takes BP meds, but he’s an old dude (not really. Older than me – he’s 60).. And I think BP problems started with my ex fairly recently. Paul had some incidences of dizziness, which is why he made an appointment with my doctor. I’ve not said a word to him (like I said, he is one big hypochondriac )-but I feared it might be the onset of panic. We will see. I don’t even want to say the P word to him unless and until everything.. I mean everything is ruled out, or he’ll be our new poster to the group. I think I could induce leprosy on that kid if I told him I thought it might be leprosy.. so no P word until we’ve tested it all. He IS stressed out.. he’s been very worried about his wife, and the pregnancy and the birth – they also had their house on the market awhile – and now he’s a new daddy and the sole provider. He’s just spread very thin… and I think stress/anxiety is the culprit. Let’s hope the Lex works well for him, and I’m going to take his BP tomorrow. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Oh how awful, Sally! Good vibes being sent your way. I feel so bad for you all. Let us know what happens to Monster, please. I hope he can be put into a home without children present. What a terrible night for you all. {{{{{{{Sally & Family}}}}}}} Love, Di

(((hey Di)))) Yes, it was very scary, but we lived through it, and Claire does not have a messed up face. I think the worst part was how unexpectedly it happened… but maybe it’s for the best. I’ve thought when I visited that the kids get all the attention – Monster is just starved for love, so maybe he will live, and find a home where he’ll have more of the spotlight, and my grand daughters won’t grow up mangled.. It’s for the best, I think. We’re okay. Thanks so much for caring. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally Hi Sally, Not always easy to tell if a dog is going to be good with kids. I think some breeds are naturally more tolerant than others, but also depends on the dog’s experience with people. I grew up with two dogs, both mix breeds. There was Annie and one of her pups named Mutt. When Mutt was a puppy and I was a young child, I treated him more like a toy than a pet. Not surprisingly, Mutt never felt very comfortable with me after that and I took some bites from him over the years, but only when I provoked him. I learned a lot from him about respecting animals. Families with pets often have to make decisions about whether or not the pets and kids will interact well, and I’m sure it’s often a difficult judgment call. Sending good vibes. Very Best Wishes, Arthur

Hey Arthur, I think maybe after the girls are older would be a better time to have a dog. I was 7 when I got my first dog, and I admit, I was still probably too young to have a dog then. Kids don’t really have the compassion an adult would have toward an animal – they are toys to the child.. perfect word. Monster was a mixed breed. He was half dalmatian and I think half rat. At least that would account for his face. I feel badly about the entire thing, but it was never my idea to have a dog and babies – I personally would not even attempt that. I try to just love and support them – advice is not wanted nor heeded, but sometimes life is a better teacher than words.. bad experience for us all. (((Thanks))), Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Sally, I’m sorry this occurred. I wouldn’t even have a second thought about what to do. It’s difficult to let the dog go but if something would happen to Claire in the future, you’d never forgive yourselves. ((((((Claire & Family)))))) smiles, Elise

Yes. This was a no-brainer. No dogs around any babies! Not again! That was enough of a scare, and thankfully, Claire was not hurt. Can’t say mom and grandma handled it half as well as Claire did. It was just upsetting and something we’ll get over, it was just.. not a good scene at all, or an easy thing to do. Easy choice to make, but it made no one feel good. Very mixed feelings, still. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Sally, I hope things go better for you and your family soon. Events usually go in cycles and somethings things go wrong all at the same time. Things will straighten out eventually, but while you are going through rocky times, it doesn’t seem like it. Hang in there … Mary

Hey Mary, Thanks so much. I do know that sometimes it just seems like everything goes badly at once. It’s also true sometimes things all seem to go well. It was real unfortunate, and it is regrettable we got so attached to an animal and vice-versa and it turned out like this.. Live and learn. My grand daughter is fine. She’s not going to be so fine when she discovers her dog has gone away, though. Glad I live in another part of town, LOL. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally no dog is to be trusted around small chidlren-his response was territorial, dominant and fear based-if the dog is hugged around the neck he has nowhere to go for egress, so he defended himself-if he wanted to hurt her, he could have devoured her face-he didn’t-it was more a warning more then anything else-I hope someone adopts him rather then just dumbly labeling him as a kid killer pit bull predator-and ends his life

LM, I showed your response to my son, and it made him feel better. He said it kind of reinforced the same conclusion they had come to – that it’s just not a great idea to have animals around small children. The fact that this did not happen sooner – Claire is 20 months old – lets you know Monster is a good dog. He just was not at all in the mood for a neck hug. To say the least. I wish so much someone would adopt him, he really is such a sweetheart. (((Thanks)))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Thanks Dennis, It was traumatic but we are doing better today. I hope you can figure out what is going on with Spike, sometimes vets can help. (((Thanks)))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

The keyword here, I think, is *depression*. I know a number of people suffering from depression who indeed noticed improvement within a week although rarely very much improvement. I have met one or two anxiety sufferers who had positive experiences within a few days and read (don’t remember where) that this occurs occasionally. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though)

I read a medical article recently that reported the results of a study, and said SSRIs start working in one week. Meaning some improvement is noted after only 7 days. Full effect takes longer to reach. The article noted this was contrary to the usual spiel which goes something like "takes 2 to 4 weeks to work and up to 8 weeks" and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death.

Maybe he snapped at her as a warning. Dogs can’t talk. Our beagle was sitting at my mother’s feet while she was eating breakfast, and I patted the beagles back, and she snapped at me cause she thought I’d interfere with her obtaining food. (food is very important to beagles…..they’re highly motivated by food). The beagle didn’t want to harm or hurt me. Just warn me. In any case, I hope every thing settles down, Sally. You and your family are in my prayers. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though)

Here’s that article I was referring to: Early Onset of Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Antidepressant Action Systematic Review and Meta-analysis Matthew J. Taylor, MRCPsych; Nick Freemantle, PhD; John R. Geddes, MD; Zubin Bhagwagar, DPhil Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2006;63:1217-1223. Context Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are often described as having a delayed onset of effect in the treatment of depression. However, some trials have reported clinical improvement as early as the first week of treatment. Objective To test the alternative hypotheses of delayed vs early onset of antidepressant action with SSRIs in patients with unipolar depression. Data Sources Trials identified by searching CENTRAL, The Cochrane Collaboration database of controlled trials (2005), and the reference lists of identified trials and other systematic reviews. Conclusions Treatment with *SSRIs is associated with symptomatic improvement in depression by the end of the first week of use*, and the improvement continues at a decreasing rate for at least 6 weeks. http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/11/1217 — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

highanxiety schreef: Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that..

It is rare but it *is* possible to experience poitive effects from an AD within days. Is Paul’s BP ok again? (If not, there are betablockers, calcium antagonists, ACE inhibitors and such.) He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening.

I can feel it coming….. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE.

Ouch! Scary stuff. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically.

Was it really *attacking* or just stopping Claire from hugging him? I am happy that she wasn’t seriously injured which is what happens when a dog attacns seriously, I’d think. (Not that I would take the risk with a child) She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize.

Interesting and a good thing. There may also be people without children who may be interested in an essentially nice dog like Monster (love the name). It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either.

No, you can’t. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids.

Hey, *I* just said that, you’re stealing my lines but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere…

Obviously. vibes, please.

Mine are vibing across the Atlantic even as we speak. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Sally, Not always easy to tell if a dog is going to be good with kids. I think some breeds are naturally more tolerant than others, but also depends on the dog’s experience with people. I grew up with two dogs, both mix breeds. There was Annie and one of her pups named Mutt. When Mutt was a puppy and I was a young child, I treated him more like a toy than a pet. Not surprisingly, Mutt never felt very comfortable with me after that and I took some bites from him over the years, but only when I provoked him. I learned a lot from him about respecting animals. Families with pets often have to make decisions about whether or not the pets and kids will interact well, and I’m sure it’s often a difficult judgment call. Sending good vibes. Very Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Sorry to hear about this, Sally! All the upset of a new baby and to have to lose a pet too. It’s sad, I understand. Good vibes and prayers coming your way! No more Halloween demons. Our dog Spike is having some trouble we don’t understand. Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey ASAPM, We are going through an adjustment period as a family with the birth of my second grand daughter. My son is young, 28, and his BP has been higher than mine ever ran. He made an appointment with my doctor, who told him it was stress (aka..the "a" word) and he put him on 10mg Lexapro. Paul’s only been on the stuff a week, but he says he can tell a difference already – was having lots of diarrhea, and now he’s not. I am thinking some of this may be just the placebo effect, I never heard of an AD working in a week (I wish they did though).. Anyway.. there is that.. and my DIL is having mood swings, but all new mothers do. She’s kind of snappy and emotional, but hopefully, this will pass. I know I’ve been there and it’s no fun at all. Those damned hormones. We had an upsetting event tonight, and I just want some good vibes and prayers. It was so unexpected. Right BEFORE my kids got married, they got a dog. They named him "Monster" because he would not behave at all. LOL. Monster is NOT the prettiest dog I’ve seen, but I love him. We all do. A couple of years ago on Christmas Eve night, someone tried to break into the kids’ house, and Monster woke the kids up in time for my son to run the guy off – Monster was our hero. He’s been really a wonderful dog with my grand daughter Claire. He has put up with her pulling his ears, and trying to ride him.. things toddlers do to dogs – he’s just been very non chalant about her, and she really loves Monster. We never had a problem until this evening. Claire and Monster were in the same chair and Monster was kissing Claire, and she was laughing. She put her arms around his neck and gave him a hug. It was not a hard hug. It was a gentle hug – and he attacked her IN THE FACE. Scared us about half to death. We never saw that coming, and could not figure out what even happened to make him act like that. Claire got a little scrape near her nose, but was otherwise okay physically. It was harder on my DIL and I, who witnessed it, than it was on Claire physically. We decided he had to go. No questions, no second chances, no nothing. My son took him to the Humane Society. They originally said they would euthenize (sp) him if he had attacked a child, that he was not placeable. The woman who is in charge of the facility that takes animals that have attacked people just happened to be there at the time my son brought Monster in – She was very nice, and Paul explained that he had never acted like that before. She told him that they would have an animal behaviorist test Monster before they made the final decision to euthanize. It was upsetting to us all. Just upsetting. The whole thing. And mixed emotions, because Monster was part of our family, but we can’t tolerate an animal we can’t trust with the babies either. Neither could we just pass on our problem to another person.. I know we made the only right decision we could.. but you all keep my kids and Monster in your prayers. I’d take him, but I simply do not have the room. I want him alive and maybe in a home without kids. Don’t know. And my son especially was upset about having to take him to the Humane Society. He said he was glad he was on the Lexapro. Just… keep them in your vibes and prayers. It’s not easy adjusting to a new baby, and to have to give up your pet suddenly – it’s just a lot. I am crying, and it was not even my dog, but I’ll take my grand daughters’ faces over any animal, anytime, anywhere… vibes, please. Love, Sally

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

no dog is to be trusted around small chidlren-his response was territorial, dominant and fear based-if the dog is hugged around the neck he has nowhere to go for egress, so he defended himself-if he wanted to hurt her, he could have devoured her face-he didn’t-it was more a warning more then anything else-I hope someone adopts him rather then just dumbly labeling him as a kid killer pit bull predator-and ends his life — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Anyone Know…

admin — Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Where I could get really fast financial help for the farm? Needed ASAP.

I really wish I did Kitten! Looks like Marcia found a good amount of links to look into… hope something comes up, and *soon*. An "adopt a baby goat" thingy? I’ve seen animal rescuers here do it but not for farm animals. And wouldn’t ya know it’s on a day I’m sick.

MothWrangler's apology

admin — Sat, 03 Jun 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

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That was actually one of your more understandable, coherent posts. The first part of it is similar to something I utilize with other people on a regular basis, the entire concept that each person’s view on an issue is dependent upon where that person is in relation to the issue, each person sees it differently. When you write clearly and cohesively, we are able to understand the point you’re trying to convey. Kitten

Response:

Fuck off everyone. hmmmm If your "everyone" is inclusive of yours truly, which I believe it is, then it’s probably the very first time I have ever been included in the group named "everyone" in my six years on usenet!

Yes, it includes you. It includes you because I know how you think and I understand what you are saying. Specifically, you do not require any response from me. If you will remember out last converstation, we concluded it with an increasinly frivollous sequence of ‘last words" … "." and finally " ", IIRC. Who got the last word in really isn’t important. What it signifies is more interesting … You don’t need my response. You don’t need anyone’s response. The interaction alone, whatever it is; for however long that it is is where it is "at" with you. So, yes … Fuck off everyone, INCLUDING you. I do believe I will go "F/O"! Las Vegas nightlife is beckoning me! I will be sure to make a toast for a certain morally courageous man—who must decide whether he’s going to give LIFE another shot, or, not.

At least sombody knows how to enjoy themself. PS: Life NOT psychiatry, RL! PPS: A pity you don’t live some place where you can paint the town red—after such tremendous labor—(whether or not your labor was success). )) Take care, Linda

Yes, you understand me. The irony is that by virtue of how you perceive things … The fact that you understand me is unimportant. "."

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It also means that I understand what is happening and have good reason to feel dismayed. Trying and failing to get out of that trap is what is driving me to selfdestruction.

Response:

Too hard to understand, I assume. Or I am too incapable or ineffective. ???? Either way … It is too much, for too little, being too late. It ceases to be important.

The first night I met March Rogers, he was talking about shamanism. He said he’d met many people who said they yearned for the days when the shaman was an accepted part of the village. What many of them didn’t get, he said, was that the shaman’s accepted place was the edge of the village. No one really liked to go to the shaman, because it meant you had a big problem, and you’d already tried, and failed, to fix it, and the shaman was going to do some weird kind of shit and maybe make things better, but maybe by making them worse at first. The shaman was an accepted part of the village… but also an outsider. It’s a lonely path to walk, much of the time. It’s doubly lonely because the shaman is stuck seeing things that other people don’t see or understand. Sometimes not even another shaman understands; the spirit world is wide and varied, and people see it differently. I think, if you could find a good shaman – and it’s hard for folks living outside the pagan community to know who’s "good" – that it would be helpful. If nothing else, it might help you frame your problems in a way that leaves you feeling less alone. But you might be able to do the same thing. If you’re interested, do some research on shamanism. If you’d come to me for spiritual advice – and you haven’t – my first guess would be that you’d already taken the first step towards being a shaman. (Unfortunately, that first step is kind of like those old cartoons where someone steps into the Grand Canyon and warns someone else to "watch that first step… it’s a doozy." Or, of course, I might be totally off the mark. It might not do anything for you at all. But it’s an avenue for you to consider, if you haven’t looked into it already. — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like: for many of the best, noblest concepts of the world’s religions, the word "believe" is five letters too long.

Response:

Excellent, Kitten! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier: You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this. That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact. It’s up to YOU. Do you get this? You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to. I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE. They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be. I’ve seen it. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here. You know that. Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely. I think the key lies therein. Yeah. .. My my former p-doc is a sufficiently large horse’s ass that he is a comple3tely incompetent, fucking, idiot. I appreciated the worth in him. … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily. How did he fail himself? How did he fail you?

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Try, try again. Get help, never give up. Ask God for help.

Response:

I get a lot of that also, RL. As far as I’m concerned, if they make sense at all, then they’re the fucking posers, not ADD at all.

| For about a week, I have put considerable effort into attempting to | express myself; into trying to understand what others are saying. | | It is pointed out that I mostly talk nonsense. It is also pointed out | that I stubbornly refuse to apologize for insulting MW. | | | | My efforts amount to rambling incoherent babble. My efforts to | contribute to the understanding of ADD are not construed as being | ’such’. .. Not that such really matters. Nobody can understand me, | anyhow. | | | Although I have nobody else to communicate with, I also quit trying to | express myself here .. | | Regardless of whatever, I myself might believe …. | | I recognize that my attempt is a complete failure. | | Failure on top of failure on top of failure without end. | | Fuck it. | | Frankly, it’s too late, regardless. | | A childish response? | | I am a 52 year old man conversing with adults. | | I guess I should just chalk it up to my grotesque view of anything. | | | | SP tells me to provide a copy of this thread to my psychiatrist. | | My former psychiatrist ( and ADD expert ) told me to FOAD 2 weeks after | my mother died because I felt sad at accepting his advice. .. To be | more percise about it; it wasn’t that I was reluctant to follow his | advice, … I was utterly desperate to ‘think’ and decide for myself. | | Because of this "difference of opinion", the 5+ year relationship was | terminated. … | | " You don’t like my advice? .. Hit the road asshole. You will be | sorry, RL ". | | I do not have a psychiatrist. | | Only former sick-in-the-head mental patients blame their former | psychiatrists for their problems. | | Everyone knows that. | | | I am just GARBAGE. | | Everyone knows it . Everyone says it. |

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It means that you have times when you are more lucid and can see things more clearly. Those are NOT the times to get discouraged and to give up. Those are the times to take encouragement that you’ve improved enough to see what’s going on with you and around you. Those are the times to begin implementing life-changing alterations in how you deal with things. Get those changes in place *before* you sink back into the hole. Don’t slide into that cave. It’s too easy to go there, but oh, so hard to get back out again. Fight to stay out of that cave of depression and despair. Fight for yourself and for your life. Find someone in your life who can be an anchor for you, like rock climbers have to help them climb the face of mountains. S/he helps you; and in turn, you help him/her. But whatever you do, don’t let yourself keep falling further and further into that cave, into that hole. Life is worth fighting for! Kitten

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If that’s truly what he was saying, and not simply your perception of what he was saying, then you’re better off without him. However, what I meant by "Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you" is that no doctor, p-doc, friend, pastor, Usenet correspondent, etc can help you get better until *you* are ready to do your part of the work toward making yourself better. A doctor can give you medical advice and/or prescribe meds, but it’s not going to help unless *you* follow the advice and until *you* take the meds. It’s that sort of thing. People here in the group can provide you with all sorts of advice and "this worked for me, YMMV" but no matter how good the suggestions are, none of them will work for you until *you* implement them. Kitten asserts … " Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you. …" I WANT TO SCREAM IN AGONY at what you are "suggesting", here …

See above. It’s worth repeating, but I’m too tired to retype it.

There are plenty of people who’ve recovered to a point of being able to go back to work and to take care of themselves. That is *SUPPOSED* to be the goal, is it not? Do you honestly believe that psychiatric patients are taken seriously?

I don’t recall that being a question on job applications. "Why were you out of work from ____ to ____?" ’I had some serious health issues that needed to be dealt with.’ "Is it still an issue that we should be concerned about?" And here’s where you respond with your current WELLNESS status. ’I have the condition under control with medication and diet,’ etc. I understand that you mean well by asserting that I am the only one saying that … … but what you may not realize is that you are asserting a ‘Conspiricy of Silence’ I mean by this … "Everyone is sensible. …. Some people are MORE equal than others." … It sickens me to hear the assertion that mental patients are NOT *automatically* presumed to be CRAZY-FLAKES-THAT-SPEAK-NONSENSE, etc.

YOU are the one projecting that attitude into the discussion. Yes, it can be frustrating, but ya know what? Nearly everyone I’ve ever known has *some* sort of mental issue they need to work on. Some actually seek help. Most don’t. Quite a few of the ones who don’t, should. That the healthcare professionals, themselves should make such an error is truly DISGUSTING and UNPROFESSIONAL.

I agree. So, which disgusting and unprofessional people should we seen my mother, the Uber-Nurse, to deal with? I’m truly concerned by your recent posts. Is there anyone near you with whom you can speak? A good friend? A pastor? A mentor? You need someone close to home, not online, to talk to, someone who can help you through this. Please talk to *someone*. My world is filled with people who hold MW’s dismissive attitude about me.

I think she’s more frustrated by you than dismissive of you. Two totally different things there. Find someone who can work with you, help you get past those points that cause people to become so frustrated with you. A pastor might be a good place to start. If s/he can’t help you, they may be able to steer you in the right direction.

So stop it already! Have some patience with yourself. Allow yourself to start SLOWLY. Give yourself time. If it takes you an entire day to figure out how to write out just one thing you want to say, give yourself an entire day. After a while, it will come more easily. Just slowly, ever so slowly, and carefully, start working out what’s going on inside of you. Start healing. Let yourself heal. THUS I SURRENDER

Not accepted. You’re far to valuable a person to allow yourself to surrender to the despair. Kitten

Response:

Not if you fight smart. You have to outsmart the things that keep pulling you down. Use all that knowledge you’ve been telling us about to fight that downward spiral. Use the determination you’ve shown in these discussions the past few days to anchor yourself to what is real and to keep yourself from falling into that cave of dispair. You have put a great deal of time, effort and emotion into trying to help me. .. very similar, really, as your efforts at rescuing baby doelings. … You have been up most of the night and are perhaps *still* going at it.

Downloaded an alarm to my computer this morning, 30-day trial version. I set alarms for every hour to wake me so that I can take care of the two I have in the house. I’m determined I’m not going to lose Pepper. Her broken hock is nearly healed. We’ve worked with her for over 3 weeks. I’m *not* going to lose her now!

RL, you’re right. It’s an honest lesson. I’ll tell you where I’ve risked that piece of myself. Well, one area where I’ve risked that piece of myself. We’ve been taking orphaned/abandoned/etc goat-kids and lambs since December 26th. We’ve taken in over 40 of them. We’ve succeeded in saving 32. When we get a newborn in, we start by warming the colostrum. If it’s not a newborn, we can go straight to Lamb Magic or Kid Magic milk replacer. (The only differences are the %-age of milk fat and whether or not deccox is incluced.) For either, we then have the daunting task of teaching them to take a bottle. Some of them are more resistant than others. Think of the many different people who come to ASAD and to ASA with their rants about whether or not they think ADHD/AS is real, what their opinions are on the various treatments, what they think about the people who post to ASAD/ASA, etc. Teaching a new baby to take a bottle is kinda like that. For some, you can carefully open their mouths, insert the nipple, close their mouths over it, tip the nipple a bit so that milk goes into their mouths so that they realize what’s inside the nipple, and VOILA! They take the nourishing milk from the bottle. They receive nourishment and they grow. They become strong. They jump and bounce and play. Eventually, they are big enough and strong enough to move them to pasture and the lamb pen with the older babies. But for others, you go through the same steps in trying to show them how the bottle works, and they spit out the nipple. They refuse to take it. It’s "not natural!" It’s not their momma. They don’t want to have anything to do with it. And so you fight. And you fight. And you struggle. And eventually, they become hungry enough that they will take the milk from the nipple, even though it’s not from their momma. But my current struggle is closer to what you’re going through. I’ve two babies, one nearly 4 weeks old and one just 5 days old, that take the bottle just fine. They love the bottle. The tiny one woke up this morning not wanting to eat. The older one received an injury while we were gone out of town, a broken leg. On top of that, she had Floppy Kid Syndrome while we were gone. We were only gone 5 days, but since we’ve been home, we’ve been constantly working with her, helping her heal. And now, just as her broken leg is nearly healed, she’s gotten sick on top of that. So I fight to save them, just as I’ve fought to save others. I don’t want to lose them. I love them. They are such sweet babies. I’ve lost others that were also sweet, darling babies. It takes something from the heart of me when I lose one that I’ve worked with for days, weeks. (It’s not quite so hard when it’s a brand new one that I’ve only struggled to save for a few hours, but it’s still hard.) I have to remind myself that I’ve saved more than I’ve lost. I look out in the yard at the younger ones that are healthy and playing in the sunshine. I look in the pasture at the ones from months ago, the ones that are now weaned. I find ways to encourage myself to keep going. I sleep when I can. I’m learning to ask others for help, both with the babies and with all my other responsibilities. I take my meds so that I can continue dealing with these challenges God has laid on my plate. And I make a determination NEVER to give up. No matter how much I *want* to give up on particular days, I don’t let myself. I am building myself a support network, friends I can count on to be there for me when I can’t keep myself going any longer. Some of them are here in ASAD, whether they know it or not. Some are in the Fibromyalgia NG. Some are in the Reiki NG, where I’ve found there are other healers in the same predicament I’m in – burned out, used up, in grave need of emergency recouperation so that we can go on with the work God has laid out before us. But as valuable as my online support network is, it isn’t enough. I’ve had to learn to allow [read: force] my husband and my children to be a part of my support network, rather than just me being *their* support system. I’ve always had my mother, but she’s 1500 miles away and I’ve never wanted to bother her with my problems. (Gotta learn to get over that!) I’ve got my PA, who doesn’t understand everything that’s going on with me but is willing to learn and is supporting me by helping my family with the issues they have. YOU can do the same. Build a support network. SP has offered to be a part of that network. For all that some of the folks in ASAD become frustrated with your posts on your rambling days, they can also be a valuable part of your support network. (Do you think *I* have never fought tooth and nail with them? Hah!!) ASA seems to be a safe place for you. But that’s not enough. You need to develop some sort of support network close at hand, up close and in person. It doesn’t necessarily need to be a p-doc. (Personally, I think they’re over-rated in many cases, necessary in some.) It can be a neighbor, a family member, a friend you trust, a doctor, a nurse, a preacher, etc. SOMEONE you can trust. I don’t know if you believe in God or not. I do. It is my firm belief that whenever I’ve been in grave need and have called out to God, the person I need to help me through that time of need has appeared. Sometimes it’s someone who’s already in my life who just happens to show up just when needed. Sometimes it’s a total stranger whom I’ll never see again. Sometimes it’s someone who becomes a new friend. But whatever the circumstance, the person who appears is just who I need at that moment in time. It works. The danger in trying to do something is the negative message which is returned by failing to achieve it. … Pushing ahead regardless, results in an increasing decline in one’s own sense of "self"; of one’s own confidence in one’s own ability. It is demotivating.

So start looking to *God’s* ability. See above. My repeated efforts to express myself; to live; to do something meet with failure and also degrade my chance of eventually overcoming the hurdle. … "this" is the trap that I have fallen into.

How many "failures" did Thomas Edison have when working to make the first light bulb? IIRC, he deemed these not as failures, but as successes in determining ways that don’t work, narrowing down the possibilities of things to try. As much as I hate to think about it, the appropriate solution is to push ahead regardless. It’s sort of a dumb "California or bust" mentality. There doesn’t seem to be any "turning back". The cost of that seem more horrible than the agony of moving forward.

But the rewards are far greater. Just one word of advice while on the journey. Don’t be so focused on where you want to go that you forget to enjoy the journey taken getting there. Kitten, who’s alarm just went off again

Response:

But whatever you do, don’t let yourself keep falling further and further into that cave, into that hole. Life is worth fighting for! Kitten

Hey RL; ‘Have to agree with Kitten here. You seem read to make a change. I really dunno what a dennist in QC can do, but if you wanna rap a bit, take out the tra..ash and email me. Regards, SP — Take out the TRA..ASH to reply

Response:

RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier:

[snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I appreciated the worth in him. … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily. How did he fail himself? How did he fail you?

Wait a minute! The reason the psychiatrist told me to "get lost" was PRECISELY because I *wanted* to help myself. You know, that wasn’t such a bad idea … What was damaging about it was the manner by which he told me to " bugger off … " He viewed me as jilting him. … His response was equivalent to … " So you don’t apreciate me, the psychiatrist? … Go to Hell, you worthless piece of shit, Raving. … I’ll teach you a lesson. … You are nothing. You are nobody. It’s all your fault. .. You are terminated. Nanna, nanna, poo, poo

My world is filled with people who hold MW’s dismissive attitude about me. ‘ …You know, I ignore about 99 out of a 100 of Raving’s posts, but my patience is thin when it comes to his diagnosing of T1,…’ ‘…Indeed. So should every poster’s every opinion be treated the same way?’ ‘… Tolerance should have limits. No everything should be tolerated. IMO, some opinions are so harmful, or unreasonable, or so absurd that they demand a response.’ Even thinking about the issues you bring up here dive me insufferably ape-shit. Frankly, I cannot bring myself to answer them with any semblence of the respect that they deserve …. And thus I am viewed as a babbling idiot who DOESN’T have any answers. This, of course, drives me even more into a state of insane exasperation. THUS I SURRENDER IN DISPAIR AT MY OWN COMPLETE FAILURE… … AT MY INABILITY TO EXPLAIN

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Agreed. … Yet, the contradiction that I face is that the "fighting for it" is the one-and-the-same thing which ends up killing me. You have put a great deal of time, effort and emotion into trying to help me. .. very similar, really, as your efforts at rescuing baby doelings. … You have been up most of the night and are perhaps *still* going at it. When you ‘risk’ that piece of yourself and reasonably *perceive* that your effort is futile, it is discouraging. It is an honest lesson. The danger in trying to do something is the negative message which is returned by failing to achieve it. … Pushing ahead regardless, results in an increasing decline in one’s own sense of "self"; of one’s own confidence in one’s own ability. It is demotivating. My repeated efforts to express myself; to live; to do something meet with failure and also degrade my chance of eventually overcoming the hurdle. … "this" is the trap that I have fallen into. As much as I hate to think about it, the appropriate solution is to push ahead regardless. It’s sort of a dumb "California or bust" mentality. There doesn’t seem to be any "turning back". The cost of that seem more horrible than the agony of moving forward. RL

Response:

RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier: You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this. That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact. It’s up to YOU.

Do you get this? You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to. I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE. They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be. I’ve seen it. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here. You know that. Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely. I think the key lies therein. Yeah. .. My my former p-doc is a sufficiently large horse’s ass that he is a comple3tely incompetent, fucking, idiot. I appreciated the worth in him. … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily.

How did he fail himself? How did he fail you?

Do you truly believe this?

Actually, no, you’re the only one I’ve seen say this about you.

Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you. Nothing anyone does will be effective until you’re ready to heal. That’s just the way live goes. This was because I the patient was UTTERLY DESPERATE to do something. … Becuse I the patent felt vulnerable at a sensoitive time in my life. My former psychiatrist knew this … He was acutely AWARE of it. He knedw it better than me .. He knew it better than anyone .. HE IS THE FUCKING GOD DAMNED ADD expert in Canada .

So what did you expect this person you’ve deemed *the* ADHD expert in Canada to do for you?

You’re the only one who’s said that. I’m truly concerned by your recent posts. Is there anyone near you with whom you can speak? A good friend? A pastor? A mentor? You need someone close to home, not online, to talk to, someone who can help you through this. Please talk to *someone*. Kitten

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier: You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this. That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact. It’s up to YOU. Do you get this? You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to. I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE. They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be. I’ve seen it.

Like thus … This is how I think ~~~ http://tinyurl.com/mjcts Too hard to understand, I assume. Or I am too incapable or ineffective. ???? Either way … It is too much, for too little, being too late. It ceases to be important.

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In that instance, MW was engaging in wishful thinking—as a consequence of mind-body dualism or SCHIZOPHRENIC reasoning of Psychiatry. MW hopes T1 is diagnosed with a neurobiological disorder like bipolar disease because A) psychiatric patients are not scapegoated/blamed for having a neurobiological disease and, B) they are perceived as being tratable. MW does not want T! dx’d with a personality disorder—because A) Psychiatry scapegoats and blames psychiatric patients for their personality disorder and B) such are long term and totally untreatable. If T1 cops to a neurobiological disorder, takes meds —she will be able to resume her place as a member in good standing of the group. If T! decides she ain’t copping to a neurobiological disorder so the abuse the MHP’s engaged against her gets sweeped under the carpet, then, T! will be dx’d with a untreatable personality disroder and not permitted to be a member in good standing of the group. Am J Psychiatry. 2006 May;163(5):913-8. Related Articles, Links The persistence of mind-brain dualism in psychiatric reasoning about clinical scenarios. Miresco MJ, Kirmayer LJ. Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, 1033 Pine Ave. West, OBJECTIVE: Despite attempts in psychiatry to adopt an integrative biopsychosocial model, social scientists have observed that psychiatrists continue to operate according to a mind-brain dichotomy in ways that are often covert and unacknowledged and suggest that the same intuitive cognitive schemas that people use to make judgments of responsibility lead to dualistic reasoning among clinicians. The goal of this study was to confirm these observations. METHOD: Self-report questionnaires were sent to the 270 psychiatrists and psychologists in the Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. In response to clinical vignettes, the participants rated the level of intentionality, controllability, responsibility, and blame attributable to the patients, as well as the importance of neurobiological, psychological, and social factors in explaining the patients’ symptoms. RESULTS: A total of 136 faculty members (50.4%) responded, and 127 were included in the analysis. Factor analysis revealed a single dimension of responsibility regarding the patients’ illnesses that correlated positively with ratings of psychological etiology and negatively with ratings of neurobiological etiology. Psychological and neurobiological ratings were inversely correlated. Multivariate analyses of variance supported these results. CONCLUSIONS: Mental health professionals continue to employ a mind-brain dichotomy when reasoning about clinical cases. The more a behavioral problem is seen as originating in "psychological" processes, the more a patient tends to be viewed as responsible and blameworthy for his or her symptoms; conversely, the more behaviors are attributed to neurobiological causes, the less likely patients are to be viewed as responsible and blameworthy. PMID: 16648335 [PubMed - in process] .

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Fuck off everyone.

hmmmm If your "everyone" is inclusive of yours truly, which I believe it is, then it’s probably the very first time I have ever been included in the group named "everyone" in my six years on usenet! I do believe I will go "F/O"! Las Vegas nightlife is beckoning me! I will be sure to make a toast for a certain morally courageous man—who must decide whether he’s going to give LIFE another shot, or, not. PS: Life NOT psychiatry, RL! PPS: A pity you don’t live some place where you can paint the town red—after such tremendous labor—(whether or not your labor was success). )) Take care, Linda

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Hillarious. [Quoting the wise, respectful MothWrangler ... ] I am not happy at what has happened to Twittering One. Perhaps there is more going on than just ADD …. ? Obviously, I am NOT in any position to say such a thing. Worse yet, to deny or disregard such a possibility, could be catastrophic … Yet, my sense is that it just isn’t so.

So says the guy who, just a short time ago, "diagnosed" T1, via usenet, as having Borderline Personality Disorder. And since you’ve also said that you recently discovered that *you* had Borderline Personality Disorder, how in the world are you in any position to judge what it’s like to have ADHD only? Nancy Unique, like everyone else [EndQuote] See http://tinyurl.com/f2dvh

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For about a week, I have put considerable effort into attempting to express myself; into trying to understand what others are saying. It is pointed out that I mostly talk nonsense. It is also pointed out that I stubbornly refuse to apologize for insulting MW. My efforts amount to rambling incoherent babble. My efforts to contribute to the understanding of ADD are not construed as being ’such’. .. Not that such really matters. Nobody can understand me, anyhow. Although I have nobody else to communicate with, I also quit trying to express myself here .. Regardless of whatever, I myself might believe …. I recognize that my attempt is a complete failure. Failure on top of failure on top of failure without end.

Did you really think you are so clever that you could succeed where Tim Brown, Cognitee, Flight of the Phoenix, Alan Palmer, Professor Von Two Steps, Byte Me, Viscount, Spammie, TBK, Art W, Ian, Jake, Hoof, Tor, Patient of Doktor Nightmare, Frenchy Short, Jan Drew, Twittering One and lots and lots of other people have ALL failed? Your only *failure* is your inability/unwllingness to recognize the discourse you desire with Mothwrangler and co. isn’t possible—not, because you are psychotic, but because Mothwrangler and co are DELUSIONAL. To wit Argueing against physical facts is delusional – so is suggesting there is a hierarchy to the value of opinions, which are subjective and unproven. "No", Target of ASAD cyberstalkers Jan 28, 2002 How can you have discourse where truth and mutual understanding is the point with delusional people who imagine there exists a heirarchy of value of opinions? Disagreeing with the opinions of people who imagine there exists a heirarchy of value of opinions automatically makes you an inferior. Unwillingness to accept your disagreeing with their opinions being used to cast you in the lot of an "inferior" will only get you branded a non-human eg troll–then, stalked, harassed, defamed, forged, impostered, froggered, hacked, AND, get your friends and loved ones stalked, harassed, defamed, impostered, froggered, hacked, and sent death threats etc. It’s Mothwrangler and co. mission to spare ASAD readers from opinions, which, in Mothwrangler’s subjective opinion, are either irrational or bigoted, or advocate violence, in Mothwrangler opinion. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Perhaps, I don’t know what bigotry is, but Mothwrangler and co. assertion there exists a heirarchy of value in opinion, where her own are superior, and anyone who disagrees with her is inferior, sure sounds irrational and bigoted to yours truly! And, creating and using a label like *troll* to objectify and dehumanize anyone who dares to point that out—knowing full well that the label is intended to be a call to arms to heap abuse, torture, liquify and eliminate the person—is being an Advocate of violence! You got it? Mothwrangler and co are NUTJOBS—and dangerous ones, to boot. It’s futile to argue with them—and, can be dangerous. Forget them. PS: Life NOT psychiatry, RL. Your choice.

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The reason that I have failed in life is simple. … No rocket science, there. I failed because I assumed/trusted/believed that other people were like myself … … possessed my ability, … cared about what I cared out … knew what I knew. Of course, I know that my assumpption is a fallicy. … I EVEN know that I appreciate ‘this’ more than most. It still doesn’t save me from the very ordinary human tradgedy of making precisely "this" mistake. At the crux is ’subjectivity’. It is easy for me to discern, appreciate, accept and respect another person’s point of view. I have it within me to understand, appreciate, accept and respect … all at one and the same time … what MW, SP, Kitten and Ann are saying. I can discern their viewpoint. I perceive the context withing which they express such … This is MY OWN ABILITY. … This is what the RL does well … I do it well, because I don’t really dfo anything else. … If it is indeed so that I do "this" thisng badly trhen I am in very serious trouble, PRECISELY and ONLY because I don’t really do anythying else. I do NOT exepect ‘others’ to do what I do well. …. The situation is asymmetrical. … Other people do other things well. They care about what they do well. That is how it is supposed to be. It could hardly be otherwise. My unbearable agony is that I can aqppreciate the other person. Whoopie doo. The RFL spews misconstrued bullshit. The RL dangerously misconstrues reality. The RL refuses to to condem or apologize for what he percieves. … the RL re-acts and blames. … the RL blames olthers … the RL can’t listen THE RAVING LOONIE IS INCAPABLE OF LISTENING RL IS BEING PAINFUILLY SUBJECTIVE What rips me into to insanity is KNOWING that all of these observations of me are derived from my skill at diswcerning and respecting thye OTHER PERSON’S POINT of VIEW. The greatest pain of all is that ADD is very much about ‘Subjectivity’ … … about the ability to hop from one hyperfocus to another. Because of my skill in this regard, I set my self up as the scapegaoat for everyone else’s subjective experience. I wish to fuck that I was dead and free of this world. … .. and I am far to skilled and intelligent to be fooled by my own local agony. FOR THIS VERY REASON, I SUFFER AND RISK A 100X MORE … Damn it. I can’t wait for it all to be over … and how fucking incredibly stupid it is for me to say that .. This is my reality. …. These are the insane shears that I live. Please disswmiss me. … I can see that reality for mtyself. Don’t be so cruel as to insist that I am bellyaching because I am being dismissed. I AM BEING DISMISSED. SHIT HAPPENS AND THEN WE DIE

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Correction. You have been dismissed, marginalized, invalidated. Henceforth, you will be treated as an invalid by the people whom dismissed, marginalized and invalidated you. From now on, anything ou say or do in response to your being treated

as *invalid* will be used to try to persuade you that you are a Borderline in need of help. Welcome to the briar patch, tar baby! :-) Briar patch isn’t so bad, where the alternative is being a mindless member of a group of emotionally vacant, immature robotic like people imitating personhood.

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I have spent this week, trying to assert that MW is overbearingly selfconfident … … HUBERIS Even before I said this, I realized inherenetly .,,, … because after I asserted it, I realized it very overtly and plainly. As someone who suffers from ADD … a.k.a. the inability to limit my own awareness. Hubris isn’t such a bad thing. For somebody with ADD it is an exceeding worthy and desirable quality. How dare I say something bad about MW … That is all that matters, here. I wish that I was dead. I am not so foolish as to act irresponsibly. .. I agonize in the realizition that that really doesn’t matter a fuck in the world which I am useless and disenfranched from. Good bye. I am just causing more pain for muyself by trying. I will try to find some other activity to pass the time I agonize to death that whatever I( *might* believe that I KNOW is irrelevent. Fuck off everyone.

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Oh, come off it, RL. You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this. That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact. It’s up to YOU. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here. You know that. Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely. I think the key lies therein. Kitten

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Yeah. .. My my former p-doc is a sufficiently large horse’s ass that he is a comple3tely incompetent, fucking, idiot. I appreciated the worth in him. … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily. There is nothing complicated about what happened. My former pdoc felt frustraded that he could be effective. … that this situation arose out of my own desperate attempt to become effective *honestly* has nothing to do with it. The ONLY thing that mattered to my former pdoc was how he felt about himself. Fuck, he might just as well as gone and raped me for all of the differince it makes … Ever wonder as to why he is a slpecialist in ADD? Ever wonder why he refers to himself as a ‘Child Psychiatrist"? My mother died because I abandoned her. .. I COULD BE SUCESSFULLY PROSECUTED FOR "ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY" POLICE, PLEASE COME AND ARREST ME … I am sick to death with all of this. I am useless. A total fucking ZERO. Everyone says it It is exceedingly easy, herein. … I have provided some of the best that I have to offer … IMO, I have done a decent job of it; perhaps even, a good job of it …. … and my effort is not restricted to just the internet … I AM JUST A PYSCHOTIC ASS, MINDFUCKING MYSELF SP SCREAMS APPOLOGIZE MW SAYS THAT I AM GARBAGE AT BEST AND POTERNTIALLY MUCH MORE DANGEREROUS … SHE IS SURPRISED THAT SHE DOLESN’T KILLFILE ME JUST LIKE EVERONE ELSE. COME OFF IT KITTEN? My former shrink terminated service because he felt frustrated that he himself couldn’t do anything. This was because I the patient was UTTERLY DESPERATE to do something. … Becuse I the patent felt vulnerable at a sensoitive time in my life. My former psychiatrist knew this … He was acutely AWARE of it. He knedw it better than me .. He knew it better than anyone .. HE IS THE FUCKING GOD DAMNED ADD expert in Canada . All of this is irrelevent. Hew dumped me without regard to any other thought because he gets frustrated when he feels ineffective. Come off it? Off course … I am a mental patient. .. I am crazy. … I criticize my ex psychiatrist. I am NOTHING

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For about a week, I have put considerable effort into attempting to express myself; into trying to understand what others are saying. It is pointed out that I mostly talk nonsense. It is also pointed out that I stubbornly refuse to apologize for insulting MW. My efforts amount to rambling incoherent babble. My efforts to contribute to the understanding of ADD are not construed as being ’such’. .. Not that such really matters. Nobody can understand me, anyhow. Although I have nobody else to communicate with, I also quit trying to express myself here .. Regardless of whatever, I myself might believe …. I recognize that my attempt is a complete failure. Failure on top of failure on top of failure without end. Fuck it. Frankly, it’s too late, regardless. A childish response? I am a 52 year old man conversing with adults. I guess I should just chalk it up to my grotesque view of anything. SP tells me to provide a copy of this thread to my psychiatrist. My former psychiatrist ( and ADD expert ) told me to FOAD 2 weeks after my mother died because I felt sad at accepting his advice. .. To be more percise about it; it wasn’t that I was reluctant to follow his advice, … I was utterly desperate to ‘think’ and decide for myself. Because of this "difference of opinion", the 5+ year relationship was terminated. … " You don’t like my advice? .. Hit the road asshole. You will be sorry, RL ". I do not have a psychiatrist. Only former sick-in-the-head mental patients blame their former psychiatrists for their problems. Everyone knows that. I am just GARBAGE. Everyone knows it . Everyone says it.