Question:

Where I could get really fast financial help for the farm? Needed ASAP.

I really wish I did Kitten! Looks like Marcia found a good amount of links to look into… hope something comes up, and *soon*. An "adopt a baby goat" thingy? I’ve seen animal rescuers here do it but not for farm animals. And wouldn’t ya know it’s on a day I’m sick.

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Do you get this?  You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to.  I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to.  I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE.  They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be.  I’ve seen it. Like thus … This is how I think ~~~ http://tinyurl.com/mjcts    Too hard to understand, I assume.

That was actually one of your more understandable, coherent posts.  The first part of it is similar to something I utilize with other people on a regular basis, the entire concept that each person’s view on an issue is dependent upon where that person is in relation to the issue, each person sees it differently. When you write clearly and cohesively, we are able to understand the point you’re trying to convey. Kitten

Response:

Fuck off everyone. hmmmm If your "everyone" is inclusive of yours truly,  which I believe it is,  then it’s probably the very first time I have ever been included in the group named "everyone" in my six years on usenet!

Yes, it includes you. It includes you because I know how you think and I understand what you are saying. Specifically, you do not require any response from me. If you will remember out last converstation, we concluded it with an increasinly frivollous sequence of ‘last words" … "." and finally " ", IIRC.  Who got the last word in really isn’t important. What it signifies is more interesting … You don’t need my response. You don’t need anyone’s response. The interaction alone, whatever it is; for however long that it is is where it is "at" with you. So, yes …  Fuck off everyone, INCLUDING you. I do believe I will go "F/O"! Las Vegas nightlife is beckoning me! I will be sure to make a toast for a certain morally courageous man—who must decide whether he’s going to give LIFE another shot, or,  not.

At least sombody knows how to enjoy themself. PS: Life NOT psychiatry,  RL! PPS: A pity you don’t live some place where you can paint the town red—after such tremendous labor—(whether or not your labor was success). )) Take care, Linda

Yes, you understand me. The irony is that by virtue of how you perceive things … The fact that you understand me is unimportant. "."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Do you get this?  You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to.  I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to.  I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE.  They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be.  I’ve seen it. Like thus … This is how I think ~~~ http://tinyurl.com/mjcts    Too hard to understand, I assume. That was actually one of your more understandable, coherent posts.  The first part of it is similar to something I utilize with other people on a regular basis, the entire concept that each person’s view on an issue is dependent upon where that person is in relation to the issue, each person sees it differently. When you write clearly and cohesively, we are able to understand the point you’re trying to convey.

It also means that I understand what is happening and have good reason to feel dismayed. Trying and failing to get out of that trap is what is driving me to selfdestruction.

Response:

  Too hard to understand, I assume. Or I am too incapable or ineffective.   ???? Either way  … It is too much, for too little, being too late.    It ceases to be important.

The first night I met March Rogers, he was talking about shamanism. He said he’d met many people who said they yearned for the days when the shaman was an accepted part of the village. What many of them didn’t get, he said, was that the shaman’s accepted place was the edge of the village. No one really liked to go to the shaman, because it meant you had a big problem, and you’d already tried, and failed, to fix it, and the shaman was going to do some weird kind of shit and maybe make things better, but maybe by making them worse at first. The shaman was an accepted part of the village… but also an outsider. It’s a lonely path to walk, much of the time. It’s doubly lonely because the shaman is stuck seeing things that other people don’t see or understand. Sometimes not even another shaman understands; the spirit world is wide and varied, and people see it differently. I think, if you could find a good shaman – and it’s hard for folks living outside the pagan community to know who’s "good" – that it would be helpful. If nothing else, it might help you frame your problems in a way that leaves you feeling less alone. But you might be able to do the same thing. If you’re interested, do some research on shamanism. If you’d come to me for spiritual advice – and you haven’t – my first guess would be that you’d already taken the first step towards being a shaman. (Unfortunately, that first step is kind of like those old cartoons where someone steps into the Grand Canyon and warns someone else to "watch that first step… it’s a doozy." Or, of course, I might be totally off the mark. It might not do anything for you at all. But it’s an avenue for you to consider, if you haven’t looked into it already. — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten.  Like: for many of the best, noblest concepts of the world’s religions, the word "believe" is five letters too long.

Response:

Excellent, Kitten! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier: You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this.  That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact.  It’s up to YOU. Do you get this?  You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to.  I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to.  I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE.  They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be.  I’ve seen it. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here.  You know that.  Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely.  I think the key lies therein. Yeah. .. My my former p-doc is a sufficiently large horse’s ass that he is a comple3tely incompetent, fucking, idiot. I appreciated the worth in him.  … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily. How did he fail himself?  How did he fail you? <snipped My mother died because I abandoned her.  .. I COULD BE SUCESSFULLY PROSECUTED FOR "ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY" Do you truly believe this? <snipped I am useless.  A total fucking ZERO. Everyone says it Actually, no, you’re the only one I’ve seen say this about you. <snipped My former shrink terminated service because he felt frustrated that he himself couldn’t do anything. Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you.  Nothing anyone does will be effective until you’re ready to heal.  That’s just the way live goes. This was because I the patient was UTTERLY DESPERATE to do something.  … Becuse I  the patent felt vulnerable at a sensoitive time in my life. My former psychiatrist knew this  … He was acutely AWARE of it.  He knedw it better than me  .. He knew it better than anyone  ..  HE IS THE FUCKING GOD DAMNED ADD expert in Canada . So what did you expect this person you’ve deemed *the* ADHD expert in Canada to do for you? <snipped I am a mental patient.   .. I am crazy.   … I criticize my ex psychiatrist. I am NOTHING You’re the only one who’s said that. I’m truly concerned by your recent posts.  Is there anyone near you with whom you can speak?  A good friend?   A pastor?  A mentor?  You need someone close to home, not online, to talk to, someone who can help you through this.  Please talk to *someone*. Kitten

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Do you get this?  You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to.  I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to.  I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE.  They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be.  I’ve seen it. Like thus … This is how I think ~~~ http://tinyurl.com/mjcts    Too hard to understand, I assume. That was actually one of your more understandable, coherent posts.  The first part of it is similar to something I utilize with other people on a regular basis, the entire concept that each person’s view on an issue is dependent upon where that person is in relation to the issue, each person sees it differently. When you write clearly and cohesively, we are able to understand the point you’re trying to convey. It also means that I understand what is happening and have good reason to feel dismayed. Trying and failing to get out of that trap is what is driving me to selfdestruction.

Try, try again.  Get help, never give up. Ask God for help.

Response:

I get a lot of that also, RL. As far as I’m concerned, if they make sense at all, then they’re the fucking posers, not ADD at all.

| For about a week, I have put considerable effort into attempting to | express myself;  into trying to understand what others are saying. | | It is pointed out that I mostly talk nonsense. It is also pointed out | that I stubbornly refuse to apologize for insulting MW. | | | | My efforts amount to rambling incoherent babble.   My efforts to | contribute to the understanding of ADD are not construed as being | ’such’.   .. Not that such really matters. Nobody can understand me, | anyhow. | | | Although I have nobody else to communicate with, I also quit trying to | express myself here .. | | Regardless of whatever, I myself might believe  …. | |  I recognize that my attempt is a complete failure. | | Failure on top of failure on top of failure without end. | | Fuck it. | | Frankly, it’s too late, regardless. | | A childish response? | |  I am a 52 year old man conversing with adults. | | I guess I should just chalk it up to my grotesque view of anything. | | | | SP tells me to provide a copy of this thread to my psychiatrist. | | My former psychiatrist ( and ADD expert ) told me to FOAD 2 weeks after | my mother died because I felt sad at accepting his advice.  .. To be | more percise about it; it wasn’t that I was reluctant to follow his | advice,  … I was utterly desperate to ‘think’ and decide for myself. | | Because of this "difference of opinion", the 5+ year relationship was | terminated. … | | " You don’t like my advice?  .. Hit the road asshole.  You will be | sorry, RL ". | | I do not have a psychiatrist. | | Only former sick-in-the-head mental patients blame their former | psychiatrists for their problems. | | Everyone knows that. | | | I am just GARBAGE. | | Everyone knows it .  Everyone says it. |

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped That was actually one of your more understandable, coherent posts.  The first part of it is similar to something I utilize with other people on a regular basis, the entire concept that each person’s view on an issue is dependent upon where that person is in relation to the issue, each person sees it differently. When you write clearly and cohesively, we are able to understand the point you’re trying to convey. It also means that I understand what is happening and have good reason to feel dismayed. Trying and failing to get out of that trap is what is driving me to selfdestruction.

It means that you have times when you are more lucid and can see things more clearly. Those are NOT the times to get discouraged and to give up.  Those are the times to take encouragement that you’ve improved enough to see what’s going on with you and around you.  Those are the times to begin implementing life-changing alterations in how you deal with things. Get those changes in place *before* you sink back into the hole. Don’t slide into that cave.  It’s too easy to go there, but oh, so hard to get back out again.  Fight to stay out of that cave of depression and despair.  Fight for yourself and for your life.  Find someone in your life who can be an anchor for you, like rock climbers have to help them climb the face of mountains.  S/he helps you; and in turn, you help him/her. But whatever you do, don’t let yourself keep falling further and further into that cave, into that hole. Life is worth fighting for! Kitten

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Do you truly believe this? <snipped I am useless.  A total fucking ZERO. Everyone says it Actually, no, you’re the only one I’ve seen say this about you. <cough  <cough … Example:

<snipped Those examples merely show that she gets very frustrated with your posts.  From other things she has posted, I read this to be that the disjointed style with which you often post is just as difficult for her to read as it is for *me* to read, therefore she normally skips them, not having the time to try to figure out what you’re saying.  Me, however… one of my perseverations is "clear communication."  I get nearly fanatical about figuring it out, clarifying, getting things understood by all parties involved.  I sometimes drive my family bonkers with this need I have to get things communicated clearly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped My former shrink terminated service because he felt frustrated that he himself couldn’t do anything. Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you. … Wait a minute! The reason the psychiatrist told me to "get lost" was PRECISELY because I *wanted* to help myself. You know, that wasn’t such a bad idea …  What was damaging about it was the manner by which he told me to " bugger off … "  He viewed me as jilting him. … His response was equivalent to …  " So you don’t apreciate me, the psychiatrist?  … Go to Hell, you worthless piece of shit, Raving.  … I’ll teach you a lesson.  … You are nothing.  You are nobody.  It’s all your fault.  .. You are terminated.  Nanna, nanna, poo, poo  <razz … "

If that’s truly what he was saying, and not simply your perception of what he was saying, then you’re better off without him. However, what I meant by "Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you" is that no doctor, p-doc, friend, pastor, Usenet correspondent, etc can help you get better until *you* are ready to do your part of the work toward making yourself better.  A doctor can give you medical advice and/or prescribe meds, but it’s not going to help unless *you* follow the advice and until *you* take the meds.  It’s that sort of thing.  People here in the group can provide you with all sorts of advice and "this worked for me, YMMV" but no matter how good the suggestions are, none of them will work for you until *you* implement them. Kitten asserts …  " Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you. …" I WANT TO SCREAM IN AGONY at what you are "suggesting", here …

See above.  It’s worth repeating, but I’m too tired to retype it. <snipped I am a mental patient.   .. I am crazy.   … I criticize my ex psychiatrist. I am NOTHING You’re the only one who’s said that. <cough  <cough …  " Having been a committed mental patient doesn’t do much for your resume or the rest of your life! "

There are plenty of people who’ve recovered to a point of being able to go back to work and to take care of themselves.  That is *SUPPOSED* to be the goal, is it not? Do you honestly believe that psychiatric patients are taken seriously?

I don’t recall that being a question on job applications.  "Why were you out of work from ____ to ____?"  ’I had some serious health issues that needed to be dealt with.’  "Is it still an issue that we should be concerned about?"  And here’s where you respond with your current WELLNESS status.  ’I have the condition under control with medication and diet,’ etc. I understand that you mean well by asserting that I am the only one saying that …   … but what you may not realize is that you are asserting a ‘Conspiricy of Silence’ I mean by this …  "Everyone is sensible.  …. Some people are MORE equal than others."   … It sickens me to hear the assertion that mental patients are NOT *automatically* presumed to be CRAZY-FLAKES-THAT-SPEAK-NONSENSE, etc.

YOU are the one projecting that attitude into the discussion.  Yes, it can be frustrating, but ya know what?  Nearly everyone I’ve ever known has *some* sort of mental issue they need to work on.  Some actually seek help.  Most don’t.  Quite a few of the ones who don’t, should. That the healthcare professionals, themselves should make such an error is truly DISGUSTING and UNPROFESSIONAL.

I agree.  So, which disgusting and unprofessional people should we seen my mother, the Uber-Nurse, to deal with? I’m truly concerned by your recent posts.  Is there anyone near you with whom you can speak?  A good friend?   A pastor?  A mentor?  You need someone close to home, not online, to talk to, someone who can help you through this.  Please talk to *someone*. My world is filled with people who hold MW’s dismissive attitude about me.

I think she’s more frustrated by you than dismissive of you.  Two totally different things there.  Find someone who can work with you, help you get past those points that cause people to become so frustrated with you.  A pastor might be a good place to start. If s/he can’t help you, they may be able to steer you in the right direction. <snipped Even thinking about the issues you bring up here dive me insufferably ape-shit. Frankly, I cannot bring myself to answer them with any semblence of the respect that they deserve …. And thus I am viewed  as a babbling idiot who DOESN’T have any answers. This, of course, drives me even more into a state of insane exasperation.

So stop it already!  Have some patience with yourself.  Allow yourself to start SLOWLY.  Give yourself time.  If it takes you an entire day to figure out how to write out just one thing you want to say, give yourself an entire day.  After a while, it will come more easily.  Just slowly, ever so slowly, and carefully, start working out what’s going on inside of you.  Start healing.  Let yourself heal. THUS I SURRENDER

Not accepted.  You’re far to valuable a person to allow yourself to surrender to the despair. Kitten

Response:

<snipped Agreed.  … Yet, the contradiction that I face is that the "fighting for it" is the one-and-the-same thing which ends up killing me.

Not if you fight smart.  You have to outsmart the things that keep pulling you down.  Use all that knowledge you’ve been telling us about to fight that downward spiral.  Use the determination you’ve shown in these discussions the past few days to anchor yourself to what is real and to keep yourself from falling into that cave of dispair. You have put a great deal of time, effort and emotion into trying to help me. .. very similar, really, as your efforts at rescuing baby doelings. … You have been up most of the night and are perhaps *still* going at it.

Downloaded an alarm to my computer this morning, 30-day trial version. I set alarms for every hour to wake me so that I can take care of the two I have in the house.  I’m determined I’m not going to lose Pepper. Her broken hock is nearly healed.  We’ve worked with her for over 3 weeks.  I’m *not* going to lose her now!  <fingers crossed, prayers constantly going upwards, trying to remember how to get the Reiki flowing… When you ‘risk’ that piece of yourself and reasonably *perceive* that your effort is futile, it is discouraging.  It is an honest lesson.

RL, you’re right.  It’s an honest lesson.  I’ll tell you where I’ve risked that piece of myself.  Well, one area where I’ve risked that piece of myself. We’ve been taking orphaned/abandoned/etc goat-kids and lambs since December 26th.  We’ve taken in over 40 of them.  We’ve succeeded in saving 32. When we get a newborn in, we start by warming the colostrum.  If it’s not a newborn, we can go straight to Lamb Magic or Kid Magic milk replacer.  (The only differences are the %-age of milk fat and whether or not deccox is incluced.)  For either, we then have the daunting task of teaching them to take a bottle. Some of them are more resistant than others.  Think of the many different people who come to ASAD and to ASA with their rants about whether or not they think ADHD/AS is real, what their opinions are on the various treatments, what they think about the people who post to ASAD/ASA, etc.  Teaching a new baby to take a bottle is kinda like that. For some, you can carefully open their mouths, insert the nipple, close their mouths over it, tip the nipple a bit so that milk goes into their mouths so that they realize what’s inside the nipple, and VOILA!  They take the nourishing milk from the bottle.  They receive nourishment and they grow.  They become strong.  They jump and bounce and play. Eventually, they are big enough and strong enough to move them to pasture and the lamb pen with the older babies. But for others, you go through the same steps in trying to show them how the bottle works, and they spit out the nipple.  They refuse to take it.  It’s "not natural!"  It’s not their momma.  They don’t want to have anything to do with it.  And so you fight.  And you fight.  And you struggle.  And eventually, they become hungry enough that they will take the milk from the nipple, even though it’s not from their momma. But my current struggle is closer to what you’re going through.  I’ve two babies, one nearly 4 weeks old and one just 5 days old, that take the bottle just fine.  They love the bottle.  The tiny one woke up this morning not wanting to eat.  The older one received an injury while we were gone out of town, a broken leg.  On top of that, she had Floppy Kid Syndrome while we were gone.  We were only gone 5 days, but since we’ve been home, we’ve been constantly working with her, helping her heal.  And now, just as her broken leg is nearly healed, she’s gotten sick on top of that. So I fight to save them, just as I’ve fought to save others.  I don’t want to lose them.  I love them.  They are such sweet babies. I’ve lost others that were also sweet, darling babies.  It takes something from the heart of me when I lose one that I’ve worked with for days, weeks.  (It’s not quite so hard when it’s a brand new one that I’ve only struggled to save for a few hours, but it’s still hard.) I have to remind myself that I’ve saved more than I’ve lost.  I look out in the yard at the younger ones that are healthy and playing in the sunshine.  I look in the pasture at the ones from months ago, the ones that are now weaned.  I find ways to encourage myself to keep going. I sleep when I can.  I’m learning to ask others for help, both with the babies and with all my other responsibilities.  I take my meds so that I can continue dealing with these challenges God has laid on my plate. And I make a determination NEVER to give up.  No matter how much I *want* to give up on particular days, I don’t let myself.  I am building myself a support network, friends I can count on to be there for me when I can’t keep myself going any longer. Some of them are here in ASAD, whether they know it or not.  Some are in the Fibromyalgia NG.  Some are in the Reiki NG, where I’ve found there are other healers in the same predicament I’m in – burned out, used up, in grave need of emergency recouperation so that we can go on with the work God has laid out before us. But as valuable as my online support network is, it isn’t enough.  I’ve had to learn to allow [read: force] my husband and my children to be a part of my support network, rather than just me being *their* support system.  I’ve always had my mother, but she’s 1500 miles away and I’ve never wanted to bother her with my problems.  (Gotta learn to get over that!)  I’ve got my PA, who doesn’t understand everything that’s going on with me but is willing to learn and is supporting me by helping my family with the issues they have. YOU can do the same.  Build a support network.  SP has offered to be a part of that network.  For all that some of the folks in ASAD become frustrated with your posts on your rambling days, they can also be a valuable part of your support network.  (Do you think *I* have never fought tooth and nail with them?  Hah!!)  ASA seems to be a safe place for you. But that’s not enough.  You need to develop some sort of support network close at hand, up close and in person.  It doesn’t necessarily need to be a p-doc.  (Personally, I think they’re over-rated in many cases, necessary in some.)  It can be a neighbor, a family member, a friend you trust, a doctor, a nurse, a preacher, etc.  SOMEONE you can trust. I don’t know if you believe in God or not.  I do.  It is my firm belief that whenever I’ve been in grave need and have called out to God, the person I need to help me through that time of need has appeared. Sometimes it’s someone who’s already in my life who just happens to show up just when needed.  Sometimes it’s a total stranger whom I’ll never see again.  Sometimes it’s someone who becomes a new friend.  But whatever the circumstance, the person who appears is just who I need at that moment in time.  It works. The danger in trying to do something is the negative message which is returned by failing to achieve it.  … Pushing ahead regardless, results in an increasing decline in one’s own sense of "self"; of one’s own confidence in one’s own ability.  It is demotivating.

So start looking to *God’s* ability.  See above. My repeated efforts to express myself; to live; to do something meet with failure and also degrade my chance of eventually overcoming the hurdle.   … "this" is the trap that I have fallen into.

How many "failures" did Thomas Edison have when working to make the first light bulb?  IIRC, he deemed these not as failures, but as successes in determining ways that don’t work, narrowing down the possibilities of things to try. As much as I hate to think about it, the appropriate solution is to push ahead regardless. It’s sort of a dumb "California or bust" mentality.  There doesn’t seem to be any "turning back".  The cost of that seem more horrible than the agony of moving forward.

But the rewards are far greater.  Just one word of advice while on the journey. Don’t be so focused on where you want to go that you forget to enjoy the journey taken getting there. Kitten, who’s alarm just went off again

Response:

But whatever you do, don’t let yourself keep falling further and further into that cave, into that hole. Life is worth fighting for! Kitten

Hey RL; ‘Have to agree with Kitten here. You seem read to make a change. I really dunno what a dennist in QC can do, but if you wanna rap a bit, take out the tra..ash and email me. Regards, SP — Take out the TRA..ASH to reply

Response:

RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier:

[snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I appreciated the worth in him.  … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily. How did he fail himself?  How did he fail you? <snipped My mother died because I abandoned her.  .. I COULD BE SUCESSFULLY PROSECUTED FOR "ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY" Do you truly believe this? <snipped I am useless.  A total fucking ZERO. Everyone says it Actually, no, you’re the only one I’ve seen say this about you.

<cough  <cough … Example: ‘ …You know, I ignore about 99 out of a 100 of Raving’s posts, but my patience is thin when it comes to his diagnosing of T1,…’ ‘…Indeed. So should every poster’s every opinion be treated the same way?’ ‘… Tolerance should have limits. No everything should be tolerated. IMO, some opinions are so harmful, or unreasonable, or so absurd that they demand a response.’ <snipped My former shrink terminated service because he felt frustrated that he himself couldn’t do anything. Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you. …

Wait a minute! The reason the psychiatrist told me to "get lost" was PRECISELY because I *wanted* to help myself. You know, that wasn’t such a bad idea …  What was damaging about it was the manner by which he told me to " bugger off … "  He viewed me as jilting him. … His response was equivalent to …  " So you don’t apreciate me, the psychiatrist?  … Go to Hell, you worthless piece of shit, Raving.  … I’ll teach you a lesson.  … You are nothing.  You are nobody.  It’s all your fault.  .. You are terminated.  Nanna, nanna, poo, poo  <razz … " Kitten asserts …  " Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you. …" I WANT TO SCREAM IN AGONY at what you are "suggesting", here … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Nothing anyone does will be effective until you’re ready to heal.  That’s just the way live goes. This was because I the patient was UTTERLY DESPERATE to do something.  … Becuse I  the patent felt vulnerable at a sensoitive time in my life. My former psychiatrist knew this  … He was acutely AWARE of it.  He knedw it better than me  .. He knew it better than anyone  ..  HE IS THE FUCKING GOD DAMNED ADD expert in Canada . So what did you expect this person you’ve deemed *the* ADHD expert in Canada to do for you? <snipped I am a mental patient.   .. I am crazy.   … I criticize my ex psychiatrist. I am NOTHING You’re the only one who’s said that.

<cough  <cough …  " Having been a committed mental patient doesn’t do much for your resume or the rest of your life! "          http://tinyurl.com/ztkay Do you honestly believe that psychiatric patients are taken seriously? I understand that you mean well by asserting that I am the only one saying that …   … but what you may not realize is that you are asserting a ‘Conspiricy of Silence’ I mean by this …  "Everyone is sensible.  …. Some people are MORE equal than others."   … It sickens me to hear the assertion that mental patients are NOT *automatically* presumed to be CRAZY-FLAKES-THAT-SPEAK-NONSENSE, etc. That the healthcare professionals, themselves should make such an error is truly DISGUSTING and UNPROFESSIONAL.    It is preposterous. I’m truly concerned by your recent posts.  Is there anyone near you with whom you can speak?  A good friend?   A pastor?  A mentor?  You need someone close to home, not online, to talk to, someone who can help you through this.  Please talk to *someone*.

My world is filled with people who hold MW’s dismissive attitude about me. ‘ …You know, I ignore about 99 out of a 100 of Raving’s posts, but my patience is thin when it comes to his diagnosing of T1,…’ ‘…Indeed. So should every poster’s every opinion be treated the same way?’ ‘… Tolerance should have limits. No everything should be tolerated. IMO, some opinions are so harmful, or unreasonable, or so absurd that they demand a response.’ Even thinking about the issues you bring up here dive me insufferably ape-shit. Frankly, I cannot bring myself to answer them with any semblence of the respect that they deserve …. And thus I am viewed  as a babbling idiot who DOESN’T have any answers. This, of course, drives me even more into a state of insane exasperation. THUS I SURRENDER IN DISPAIR AT MY OWN COMPLETE FAILURE…   … AT MY INABILITY TO EXPLAIN

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped That was actually one of your more understandable, coherent posts.  The first part of it is similar to something I utilize with other people on a regular basis, the entire concept that each person’s view on an issue is dependent upon where that person is in relation to the issue, each person sees it differently. When you write clearly and cohesively, we are able to understand the point you’re trying to convey. It also means that I understand what is happening and have good reason to feel dismayed. Trying and failing to get out of that trap is what is driving me to selfdestruction. It means that you have times when you are more lucid and can see things more clearly. Those are NOT the times to get discouraged and to give up.  Those are the times to take encouragement that you’ve improved enough to see what’s going on with you and around you.  Those are the times to begin implementing life-changing alterations in how you deal with things. Get those changes in place *before* you sink back into the hole. Don’t slide into that cave.  It’s too easy to go there, but oh, so hard to get back out again.  Fight to stay out of that cave of depression and despair.  Fight for yourself and for your life.  Find someone in your life who can be an anchor for you, like rock climbers have to help them climb the face of mountains.  S/he helps you; and in turn, you help him/her. But whatever you do, don’t let yourself keep falling further and further into that cave, into that hole. Life is worth fighting for!

Agreed.  … Yet, the contradiction that I face is that the "fighting for it" is the one-and-the-same thing which ends up killing me. You have put a great deal of time, effort and emotion into trying to help me. .. very similar, really, as your efforts at rescuing baby doelings. … You have been up most of the night and are perhaps *still* going at it. When you ‘risk’ that piece of yourself and reasonably *perceive* that your effort is futile, it is discouraging.  It is an honest lesson. The danger in trying to do something is the negative message which is returned by failing to achieve it.  … Pushing ahead regardless, results in an increasing decline in one’s own sense of "self"; of one’s own confidence in one’s own ability.  It is demotivating. My repeated efforts to express myself; to live; to do something meet with failure and also degrade my chance of eventually overcoming the hurdle.   … "this" is the trap that I have fallen into. As much as I hate to think about it, the appropriate solution is to push ahead regardless. It’s sort of a dumb "California or bust" mentality.  There doesn’t seem to be any "turning back".  The cost of that seem more horrible than the agony of moving forward. RL

Response:

RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier: You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this.  That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact.  It’s up to YOU.

Do you get this?  You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to.  I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to.  I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE.  They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be.  I’ve seen it. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here.  You know that.  Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely.  I think the key lies therein. Yeah. .. My my former p-doc is a sufficiently large horse’s ass that he is a comple3tely incompetent, fucking, idiot. I appreciated the worth in him.  … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily.

How did he fail himself?  How did he fail you? <snipped My mother died because I abandoned her.  .. I COULD BE SUCESSFULLY PROSECUTED FOR "ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY"

Do you truly believe this? <snipped I am useless.  A total fucking ZERO. Everyone says it

Actually, no, you’re the only one I’ve seen say this about you. <snipped My former shrink terminated service because he felt frustrated that he himself couldn’t do anything.

Noone can help you until *you* are ready to help you.  Nothing anyone does will be effective until you’re ready to heal.  That’s just the way live goes. This was because I the patient was UTTERLY DESPERATE to do something.  … Becuse I  the patent felt vulnerable at a sensoitive time in my life. My former psychiatrist knew this  … He was acutely AWARE of it.  He knedw it better than me  .. He knew it better than anyone  ..  HE IS THE FUCKING GOD DAMNED ADD expert in Canada .

So what did you expect this person you’ve deemed *the* ADHD expert in Canada to do for you? <snipped I am a mental patient.   .. I am crazy.   … I criticize my ex psychiatrist. I am NOTHING

You’re the only one who’s said that. I’m truly concerned by your recent posts.  Is there anyone near you with whom you can speak?  A good friend?   A pastor?  A mentor?  You need someone close to home, not online, to talk to, someone who can help you through this.  Please talk to *someone*. Kitten

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RL, I will repeat what I posted earlier: You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this.  That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact.  It’s up to YOU. Do you get this?  You can write in a manner where the rest of us can understand what you’re trying to say – when you choose to.  I’ve seen you do it! You can write in a manner that shows people you understand where their coming from, whether you agree with it or not – when you choose to. I’ve seen you do this, too. You understand what’s going on in the discussions here – when you choose to.  I’ve also seen you do this. Your interactions with others are YOUR CHOICE.  They are clear and coherent – when you choose for them to be.  I’ve seen it.

Like thus … This is how I think ~~~ http://tinyurl.com/mjcts    Too hard to understand, I assume. Or I am too incapable or ineffective.    ???? Either way  …  It is too much, for too little, being too late.     It ceases to be important.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped I am just GARBAGE. The reason that I have failed in life is simple.  … No rocket science, there. I failed because I assumed/trusted/believed that other people were like myself …   … possessed my ability,   … cared about what I cared out … knew what I knew. Of course, I know that my assumpption is a fallicy.  … I EVEN know that I appreciate ‘this’ more than most. It still doesn’t save me from the very ordinary human tradgedy of making precisely "this" mistake. At the crux is ’subjectivity’. It is easy for me to discern, appreciate, accept and respect another person’s point of view. I have it within me to understand, appreciate, accept and respect  … all at one and the same time   … what MW, SP, Kitten and Ann are saying. I can discern their viewpoint. I perceive the context withing which they express such … This is MY OWN ABILITY.   … This is what the RL does well   … I do it well, because I don’t really dfo anything else.   … If it is indeed so that I do "this" thisng badly trhen I am in very serious trouble,  PRECISELY and ONLY because I don’t really do anythying else. I do NOT exepect ‘others’ to do what I do well.  …. The situation is asymmetrical.  … Other people do other things  well.  They care about what they do well.  That is how it is supposed to be. It could hardly be otherwise. My unbearable agony is that I can aqppreciate the other person. Whoopie doo.   The RFL spews misconstrued bullshit.  The RL dangerously misconstrues reality. The RL refuses to to condem or apologize for what he percieves.  … the RL re-acts and blames.  … the RL blames olthers  … the RL can’t listen      THE RAVING LOONIE IS INCAPABLE OF LISTENING      RL IS BEING PAINFUILLY SUBJECTIVE What rips me into to insanity is KNOWING that all of these observations of me are derived from my skill at diswcerning and respecting thye OTHER PERSON’S POINT of VIEW. The greatest pain of all is that ADD is very much about ‘Subjectivity’ …   … about the ability to hop from one hyperfocus to another. Because of my skill in this regard, I set my self up as the scapegaoat for everyone else’s subjective experience. I wish to fuck that I was dead and free of this world. …   .. and I am far to skilled and intelligent to be fooled by my own local agony. FOR THIS VERY REASON, I SUFFER AND RISK A 100X MORE … Damn it.  I can’t wait for it all to be over  … and how fucking incredibly stupid it is for me to say that  .. This is my reality.  …. These are the insane shears that I live. Please disswmiss me.  … I can see that reality for mtyself. Don’t be so cruel as to insist that I am bellyaching because I am being dismissed. I AM BEING DISMISSED. Correction. You have been dismissed,  marginalized,  invalidated. Henceforth,  you will be treated as an invalid by the people whom dismissed,  marginalized and invalidated you. From now on,  anything ou say or do in response to your being treated as *invalid* will be used to try to persuade you that you are a Borderline in need of help. Welcome to the briar patch,  tar baby!  :-) Briar patch isn’t so bad,  where the alternative is being a mindless member of a group of emotionally vacant,  immature robotic like people imitating personhood. Hillarious. [Quoting the wise, respectful MothWrangler ... ] I am not happy at what has happened to Twittering One. Perhaps there is more going on than just ADD …. ? Obviously, I am NOT in any position to say such a thing. Worse yet, to deny or disregard such a possibility, could be catastrophic … Yet, my sense is that it just isn’t so. So says the guy who, just a short time ago, "diagnosed" T1, via usenet, as having Borderline Personality Disorder. And since you’ve also said that you recently discovered that *you* had Borderline Personality Disorder, how in the world are you in any position to judge what it’s like to have ADHD only? Nancy Unique, like everyone else [EndQuote]  See http://tinyurl.com/f2dvh <insane cackle So much for your opinion, toots.

In that instance,  MW was engaging in wishful thinking—as a consequence of mind-body dualism or SCHIZOPHRENIC reasoning of Psychiatry. MW hopes T1 is diagnosed with a neurobiological disorder like bipolar disease because A) psychiatric patients are not scapegoated/blamed for having a neurobiological disease  and,  B) they are perceived as being tratable. MW does not want T! dx’d with a personality disorder—because A) Psychiatry scapegoats and blames psychiatric patients for their personality disorder and B) such are long term and totally untreatable. If T1 cops to a neurobiological disorder,  takes meds —she will be able to resume her place as a member in good standing of the group. If T! decides she ain’t copping to a neurobiological disorder so the abuse the MHP’s engaged against her gets sweeped under the carpet, then,  T! will be dx’d with a untreatable personality disroder and not permitted to be a member in good standing of the group. Am J Psychiatry. 2006 May;163(5):913-8. Related Articles, Links The persistence of mind-brain dualism in psychiatric reasoning about clinical scenarios. Miresco MJ, Kirmayer LJ. Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, 1033 Pine Ave. West, OBJECTIVE: Despite attempts in psychiatry to adopt an integrative biopsychosocial model, social scientists have observed that psychiatrists continue to operate according to a mind-brain dichotomy in ways that are often covert and unacknowledged and suggest that the same intuitive cognitive schemas that people use to make judgments of responsibility lead to dualistic reasoning among clinicians. The goal of this study was to confirm these observations. METHOD: Self-report questionnaires were sent to the 270 psychiatrists and psychologists in the Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. In response to clinical vignettes, the participants rated the level of intentionality, controllability, responsibility, and blame attributable to the patients, as well as the importance of neurobiological, psychological, and social factors in explaining the patients’ symptoms. RESULTS: A total of 136 faculty members (50.4%) responded, and 127 were included in the analysis. Factor analysis revealed a single dimension of responsibility regarding the patients’ illnesses that correlated positively with ratings of psychological etiology and negatively with ratings of neurobiological etiology. Psychological and neurobiological ratings were inversely correlated. Multivariate analyses of variance supported these results. CONCLUSIONS: Mental health professionals continue to employ a mind-brain dichotomy when reasoning about clinical cases. The more a behavioral problem is seen as originating in "psychological" processes, the more a patient tends to be viewed as responsible and blameworthy for his or her symptoms; conversely, the more behaviors are attributed to neurobiological causes, the less likely patients are to be viewed as responsible and blameworthy. PMID: 16648335 [PubMed - in process] .

Response:

Fuck off everyone.

hmmmm If your "everyone" is inclusive of yours truly,  which I believe it is,  then it’s probably the very first time I have ever been included in the group named "everyone" in my six years on usenet! I do believe I will go "F/O"! Las Vegas nightlife is beckoning me! I will be sure to make a toast for a certain morally courageous man—who must decide whether he’s going to give LIFE another shot, or,  not. PS: Life NOT psychiatry,  RL! PPS: A pity you don’t live some place where you can paint the town red—after such tremendous labor—(whether or not your labor was success). )) Take care, Linda

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped I am just GARBAGE. The reason that I have failed in life is simple.  … No rocket science, there. I failed because I assumed/trusted/believed that other people were like myself …   … possessed my ability,   … cared about what I cared out … knew what I knew. Of course, I know that my assumpption is a fallicy.  … I EVEN know that I appreciate ‘this’ more than most. It still doesn’t save me from the very ordinary human tradgedy of making precisely "this" mistake. At the crux is ’subjectivity’. It is easy for me to discern, appreciate, accept and respect another person’s point of view. I have it within me to understand, appreciate, accept and respect  … all at one and the same time   … what MW, SP, Kitten and Ann are saying. I can discern their viewpoint. I perceive the context withing which they express such … This is MY OWN ABILITY.   … This is what the RL does well   … I do it well, because I don’t really dfo anything else.   … If it is indeed so that I do "this" thisng badly trhen I am in very serious trouble,  PRECISELY and ONLY because I don’t really do anythying else. I do NOT exepect ‘others’ to do what I do well.  …. The situation is asymmetrical.  … Other people do other things  well.  They care about what they do well.  That is how it is supposed to be. It could hardly be otherwise. My unbearable agony is that I can aqppreciate the other person. Whoopie doo.   The RFL spews misconstrued bullshit.  The RL dangerously misconstrues reality. The RL refuses to to condem or apologize for what he percieves.  … the RL re-acts and blames.  … the RL blames olthers  … the RL can’t listen      THE RAVING LOONIE IS INCAPABLE OF LISTENING      RL IS BEING PAINFUILLY SUBJECTIVE What rips me into to insanity is KNOWING that all of these observations of me are derived from my skill at diswcerning and respecting thye OTHER PERSON’S POINT of VIEW. The greatest pain of all is that ADD is very much about ‘Subjectivity’ …   … about the ability to hop from one hyperfocus to another. Because of my skill in this regard, I set my self up as the scapegaoat for everyone else’s subjective experience. I wish to fuck that I was dead and free of this world. …   .. and I am far to skilled and intelligent to be fooled by my own local agony. FOR THIS VERY REASON, I SUFFER AND RISK A 100X MORE … Damn it.  I can’t wait for it all to be over  … and how fucking incredibly stupid it is for me to say that  .. This is my reality.  …. These are the insane shears that I live. Please disswmiss me.  … I can see that reality for mtyself. Don’t be so cruel as to insist that I am bellyaching because I am being dismissed. I AM BEING DISMISSED. Correction. You have been dismissed,  marginalized,  invalidated. Henceforth,  you will be treated as an invalid by the people whom dismissed,  marginalized and invalidated you. From now on,  anything ou say or do in response to your being treated as *invalid* will be used to try to persuade you that you are a Borderline in need of help. Welcome to the briar patch,  tar baby!  :-) Briar patch isn’t so bad,  where the alternative is being a mindless member of a group of emotionally vacant,  immature robotic like people imitating personhood.

Hillarious. [Quoting the wise, respectful MothWrangler ... ] I am not happy at what has happened to Twittering One. Perhaps there is more going on than just ADD …. ? Obviously, I am NOT in any position to say such a thing. Worse yet, to deny or disregard such a possibility, could be catastrophic … Yet, my sense is that it just isn’t so.

So says the guy who, just a short time ago, "diagnosed" T1, via usenet, as having Borderline Personality Disorder. And since you’ve also said that you recently discovered that *you* had Borderline Personality Disorder, how in the world are you in any position to judge what it’s like to have ADHD only? Nancy Unique, like everyone else [EndQuote]  See http://tinyurl.com/f2dvh <insane cackle So much for your opinion, toots.    Enjoy.                     I am eliminated.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For about a week, I have put considerable effort into attempting to express myself;  into trying to understand what others are saying. It is pointed out that I mostly talk nonsense. It is also pointed out that I stubbornly refuse to apologize for insulting MW. My efforts amount to rambling incoherent babble.   My efforts to contribute to the understanding of ADD are not construed as being ’such’.   .. Not that such really matters. Nobody can understand me, anyhow. Although I have nobody else to communicate with, I also quit trying to express myself here .. Regardless of whatever, I myself might believe  ….   I recognize that my attempt is a complete failure. Failure on top of failure on top of failure without end.

Did you really think you are so clever that you could succeed where Tim Brown,  Cognitee,  Flight of the Phoenix,  Alan Palmer,  Professor Von Two Steps, Byte Me,  Viscount,  Spammie,  TBK,  Art W,  Ian,  Jake, Hoof,  Tor,  Patient of Doktor Nightmare,  Frenchy Short,  Jan Drew, Twittering One and lots and lots of other people have ALL failed? Your only *failure* is your inability/unwllingness to recognize the discourse you desire with Mothwrangler and co. isn’t possible—not, because you are psychotic,  but because Mothwrangler and co are DELUSIONAL. To wit  Argueing against physical facts is delusional – so is suggesting there is a hierarchy to the value of opinions, which are subjective and unproven.    "No", Target of ASAD cyberstalkers  Jan 28, 2002 How can you have discourse where truth and mutual understanding is the point with delusional people who imagine there exists a heirarchy of value of opinions? Disagreeing with the opinions of people who imagine there exists a heirarchy of value of opinions automatically makes you an inferior. Unwillingness to accept your disagreeing with their opinions being used to cast you in the lot of an "inferior" will only get you branded a non-human eg troll–then,  stalked,  harassed,  defamed,  forged, impostered,  froggered,  hacked,  AND,  get your friends and loved ones stalked,  harassed,  defamed,  impostered,  froggered,  hacked,  and sent death threats etc. It’s Mothwrangler and co.  mission to spare ASAD readers from opinions,  which,  in Mothwrangler’s subjective opinion,  are either irrational or  bigoted,  or advocate violence,  in Mothwrangler opinion. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Perhaps,  I don’t know what bigotry is,  but Mothwrangler and co. assertion there exists a heirarchy of value in opinion,  where her own are superior,  and anyone who disagrees with her is inferior,  sure sounds irrational and bigoted to yours truly! And,  creating and using a label like *troll* to objectify and dehumanize anyone who dares to point that out—knowing full well that the label is intended to be a call to arms to heap abuse,  torture, liquify and eliminate the person—is being an Advocate of violence! You got it? Mothwrangler and co are NUTJOBS—and dangerous ones,  to boot.  It’s futile to argue with them—and,  can be dangerous. Forget them. PS: Life NOT psychiatry,  RL. Your choice.

Response:

<snipped I am just GARBAGE.

The reason that I have failed in life is simple.  … No rocket science, there. I failed because I assumed/trusted/believed that other people were like myself …   … possessed my ability,   … cared about what I cared out … knew what I knew. Of course, I know that my assumpption is a fallicy.  … I EVEN know that I appreciate ‘this’ more than most. It still doesn’t save me from the very ordinary human tradgedy of making precisely "this" mistake. At the crux is ’subjectivity’. It is easy for me to discern, appreciate, accept and respect another person’s point of view. I have it within me to understand, appreciate, accept and respect  … all at one and the same time   … what MW, SP, Kitten and Ann are saying. I can discern their viewpoint. I perceive the context withing which they express such … This is MY OWN ABILITY.   … This is what the RL does well   … I do it well, because I don’t really dfo anything else.   … If it is indeed so that I do "this" thisng badly trhen I am in very serious trouble,  PRECISELY and ONLY because I don’t really do anythying else. I do NOT exepect ‘others’ to do what I do well.  …. The situation is asymmetrical.  … Other people do other things  well.  They care about what they do well.  That is how it is supposed to be. It could hardly be otherwise. My unbearable agony is that I can aqppreciate the other person. Whoopie doo.   The RFL spews misconstrued bullshit.  The RL dangerously misconstrues reality. The RL refuses to to condem or apologize for what he percieves.  … the RL re-acts and blames.  … the RL blames olthers  … the RL can’t listen      THE RAVING LOONIE IS INCAPABLE OF LISTENING      RL IS BEING PAINFUILLY SUBJECTIVE What rips me into to insanity is KNOWING that all of these observations of me are derived from my skill at diswcerning and respecting thye OTHER PERSON’S POINT of VIEW. The greatest pain of all is that ADD is very much about ‘Subjectivity’ …   … about the ability to hop from one hyperfocus to another. Because of my skill in this regard, I set my self up as the scapegaoat for everyone else’s subjective experience. I wish to fuck that I was dead and free of this world. …   .. and I am far to skilled and intelligent to be fooled by my own local agony. FOR THIS VERY REASON, I SUFFER AND RISK A 100X MORE … Damn it.  I can’t wait for it all to be over  … and how fucking incredibly stupid it is for me to say that  .. This is my reality.  …. These are the insane shears that I live. Please disswmiss me.  … I can see that reality for mtyself. Don’t be so cruel as to insist that I am bellyaching because I am being dismissed. I AM BEING DISMISSED. SHIT HAPPENS AND THEN WE DIE

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped I am just GARBAGE. The reason that I have failed in life is simple.  … No rocket science, there. I failed because I assumed/trusted/believed that other people were like myself …   … possessed my ability,   … cared about what I cared out … knew what I knew. Of course, I know that my assumpption is a fallicy.  … I EVEN know that I appreciate ‘this’ more than most. It still doesn’t save me from the very ordinary human tradgedy of making precisely "this" mistake. At the crux is ’subjectivity’. It is easy for me to discern, appreciate, accept and respect another person’s point of view. I have it within me to understand, appreciate, accept and respect  … all at one and the same time   … what MW, SP, Kitten and Ann are saying. I can discern their viewpoint. I perceive the context withing which they express such … This is MY OWN ABILITY.   … This is what the RL does well   … I do it well, because I don’t really dfo anything else.   … If it is indeed so that I do "this" thisng badly trhen I am in very serious trouble,  PRECISELY and ONLY because I don’t really do anythying else. I do NOT exepect ‘others’ to do what I do well.  …. The situation is asymmetrical.  … Other people do other things  well.  They care about what they do well.  That is how it is supposed to be. It could hardly be otherwise. My unbearable agony is that I can aqppreciate the other person. Whoopie doo.   The RFL spews misconstrued bullshit.  The RL dangerously misconstrues reality. The RL refuses to to condem or apologize for what he percieves.  … the RL re-acts and blames.  … the RL blames olthers  … the RL can’t listen      THE RAVING LOONIE IS INCAPABLE OF LISTENING      RL IS BEING PAINFUILLY SUBJECTIVE What rips me into to insanity is KNOWING that all of these observations of me are derived from my skill at diswcerning and respecting thye OTHER PERSON’S POINT of VIEW. The greatest pain of all is that ADD is very much about ‘Subjectivity’ …   … about the ability to hop from one hyperfocus to another. Because of my skill in this regard, I set my self up as the scapegaoat for everyone else’s subjective experience. I wish to fuck that I was dead and free of this world. …   .. and I am far to skilled and intelligent to be fooled by my own local agony. FOR THIS VERY REASON, I SUFFER AND RISK A 100X MORE … Damn it.  I can’t wait for it all to be over  … and how fucking incredibly stupid it is for me to say that  .. This is my reality.  …. These are the insane shears that I live. Please disswmiss me.  … I can see that reality for mtyself. Don’t be so cruel as to insist that I am bellyaching because I am being dismissed. I AM BEING DISMISSED.

Correction. You have been dismissed,  marginalized,  invalidated. Henceforth,  you will be treated as an invalid by the people whom dismissed,  marginalized and invalidated you. From now on,  anything ou say or do in response to your being treated

as *invalid* will be used to try to persuade you that you are a Borderline in need of help. Welcome to the briar patch,  tar baby!  :-) Briar patch isn’t so bad,  where the alternative is being a mindless member of a group of emotionally vacant,  immature robotic like people imitating personhood.

Response:

<snipped I am just GARBAGE. Everyone knows it .  Everyone says it.

I have spent this week, trying to assert that MW is overbearingly selfconfident …    … HUBERIS Even before I said this, I realized inherenetly .,,,  … because after I asserted it, I realized it very overtly and plainly. As someone who suffers from ADD …   a.k.a.  the inability to limit my own awareness. Hubris isn’t  such a bad thing. For somebody with ADD it is an exceeding worthy and desirable quality.    How dare I say something bad about MW … That is all that matters, here. I wish that I was dead. I am not so foolish as to act irresponsibly.   .. I agonize in the realizition that that really doesn’t matter a fuck in the world which I am useless and disenfranched from. Good bye.   I am just causing more pain for muyself by trying. I will try to find some other activity to pass the time I agonize to death that whatever I( *might* believe that I KNOW is irrelevent. Fuck off everyone.

Response:

<snipped I am just GARBAGE. Everyone knows it .  Everyone says it.

Oh, come off it, RL.  You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this.  That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact.  It’s up to YOU. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here.  You know that.  Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely.  I think the key lies therein. Kitten

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped I am just GARBAGE. Everyone knows it .  Everyone says it. Oh, come off it, RL.  You know better than that, but every time someone says they have difficulty reading what you write, you post something like this.  That *doesn’t* help. You can write clearly, when you wish. You can write with understanding, when you choose to. You understand what’s going on here, but you decide not to. It’s *YOUR* choice how you interact.  It’s up to YOU. There’s more to your last discussion with your p-doc than you’ve said here.  You know that.  Perhaps it would help you if you looked at why he fired you as a patient, studied it, thought about it, examined it closely.  I think the key lies therein.

Yeah. .. My my former p-doc is a sufficiently large horse’s ass that he is a comple3tely incompetent, fucking, idiot. I appreciated the worth in him.  … That is why I repeatedly bailed him out of his own failures. In the end, he failed himself, foremost … He failed me, the patient, secondarily. There is nothing complicated about what happened.  My former pdoc felt frustraded that he could be effective. … that this situation arose out of my own desperate attempt to become effective *honestly* has nothing to do with it. The ONLY thing that mattered to my former pdoc was how he felt about himself. Fuck, he might just as well as gone and raped me for all of the differince it makes … Ever wonder as to why he is a slpecialist in ADD? Ever wonder why he refers to himself as a ‘Child Psychiatrist"? My mother died because I abandoned her.  .. I COULD BE SUCESSFULLY PROSECUTED FOR "ABUSE OF THE ELDERLY" POLICE, PLEASE COME AND ARREST ME … I am sick to death with all of this. I am useless.  A total fucking ZERO. Everyone says it It is exceedingly easy, herein. … I have provided some of the best that I have to offer … IMO, I have done a decent job of it; perhaps even, a good job of it …. … and my effort is not restricted to just the internet …  I AM JUST A PYSCHOTIC ASS, MINDFUCKING MYSELF SP SCREAMS APPOLOGIZE MW SAYS THAT I AM GARBAGE AT BEST AND POTERNTIALLY MUCH MORE DANGEREROUS   … SHE IS SURPRISED THAT SHE DOLESN’T KILLFILE ME JUST LIKE EVERONE ELSE. COME OFF IT KITTEN? My former shrink terminated service because he felt frustrated that he himself couldn’t do anything.  This was because I the patient was UTTERLY DESPERATE to do something.  … Becuse I  the patent felt vulnerable at a sensoitive time in my life. My former psychiatrist knew this  … He was acutely AWARE of it.  He knedw it better than me  .. He knew it better than anyone  ..  HE IS THE FUCKING GOD DAMNED ADD expert in Canada . All of this is irrelevent.  Hew dumped me without regard to any other thought because he gets frustrated when he feels ineffective. Come off it? Off course … I am a mental patient.   .. I am crazy.   … I criticize my ex psychiatrist. I am NOTHING

Response:

For about a week, I have put considerable effort into attempting to express myself;  into trying to understand what others are saying. It is pointed out that I mostly talk nonsense. It is also pointed out that I stubbornly refuse to apologize for insulting MW. My efforts amount to rambling incoherent babble.   My efforts to contribute to the understanding of ADD are not construed as being ’such’.   .. Not that such really matters. Nobody can understand me, anyhow. Although I have nobody else to communicate with, I also quit trying to express myself here .. Regardless of whatever, I myself might believe  ….   I recognize that my attempt is a complete failure. Failure on top of failure on top of failure without end.  Fuck it. Frankly, it’s too late, regardless. A childish response?   I am a 52 year old man conversing with adults. I guess I should just chalk it up to my grotesque view of anything. SP tells me to provide a copy of this thread to my psychiatrist. My former psychiatrist ( and ADD expert ) told me to FOAD 2 weeks after my mother died because I felt sad at accepting his advice.  .. To be more percise about it; it wasn’t that I was reluctant to follow his advice,  … I was utterly desperate to ‘think’ and decide for myself. Because of this "difference of opinion", the 5+ year relationship was terminated. … " You don’t like my advice?  .. Hit the road asshole.  You will be sorry, RL ". I do not have a psychiatrist. Only former sick-in-the-head mental patients blame their former psychiatrists for their problems. Everyone knows that. I am just GARBAGE. Everyone knows it .  Everyone says it.

Response:

Question:

The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

— Elise (supervised by Gossamer & Jeeves)

Response:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

Yeah! — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

LOL! I did warn you. Hope you’re alright. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj Do most kittens this young always have that sort of cockeyed look on their faces?  I can only assume it’s because they can’t quite focus their eyes yet.

They do, and you’re probably right about the reason. His eyes are still blue, so don’t know yet what colour they will be, but probably yellow (I hope). Not that it really matters that much. ;o) — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

Major butt flash, there.

Why the pic is so charming. ;oP — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

And of course, she’s quite right.  I thought you were going to adopt the little orange and white guy you showed us last week, though. Did that fall through?? Yes, it did, they never wrote me back. Obviously not someone you want to deal with, then.

No. I think they were unwilling to answer my questions about the kitten, his history and vetting etc. I just hope he gets a good home anyway. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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AAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! What bootiful pink nosie & toesies! You MUST get him – when’s his birthday? Think what tales he & Claudius (my provisional kitty’s name although he’ll tell me himself in due course if that’s right) will have to exchange. Purrs Gordon & the TT "Marina" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo

Response:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj Do most kittens this young always have that sort of cockeyed look on their faces?  I can only assume it’s because they can’t quite focus their eyes yet. They do, and you’re probably right about the reason. His eyes are still blue, so don’t know yet what colour they will be, but probably yellow (I hope). Not that it really matters that much. ;o)

Yep, with his fur he’s probably going to have yellow or green-ish eyes. He’s adorable! Jill

Response:

Adorable! Suz&Spicey

Response:

The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

AWWWW!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

Wow, you sure have a knack for finding the cutest kittens!  I think I’ll let you find me my next kitty — Britta "There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." — Unknown Check out pictures of Vino at: http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

Response:

What a beautiful bit!  Are you bringing him over from Estonia??? OMG he reminds me of Kumani and Tyche when they were at that age…they couldn’t "Walk", they just churned their legs and stumbled along… –Fil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters.

Response:

What a beautiful bit!  Are you bringing him over from Estonia??? OMG he reminds me of Kumani and Tyche when they were at that age…they couldn’t "Walk", they just churned their legs and stumbled along…

I think he’s being fostered in Finland. Marina will have left for the island by now, so we won’t know for sure until she gets back. — Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Squeeeaaaalll!!! Thud!!! Little fuzzy ears! Little Fuzzy Face, Little white paws!!!!  TOO MUCH CUTENESS FOR HUMAN EYES TO ASSIMILATE!!!! Pant, pant, pant… Okay, I’m calm and grounded now. Good thing you put in those disclaimers, Marina. =o) AND it’s good that little guy is clear over in Estonia.  Nina is looking at me as if to say "Get a GRIP, already!!! You have ME, and I’m striped with white paws, and I’m cute enough for the likes of  YOU." And of course, she’s quite right.  I thought you were going to adopt the little orange and white guy you showed us last week, though.  Did that fall through?? Melissa

Response:

[[The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an 'oriental' body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I'm definitely interested.]] Note to self: don’t open anything with KFW on it while at work. Then there won’t be the risk of involuntarily letting out a loud, "AAAAAAA!" at the sight of an absolutely adorable photo like this one. Holy cow. Look up "cute" in the dictionary and you’ll find that picture. What a precious little bitty! Donna and the two precious BIG bitties, Captain, and Stanley

Response:

And of course, she’s quite right.  I thought you were going to adopt the little orange and white guy you showed us last week, though.  Did that fall through??

Yes, it did, they never wrote me back. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj Do most kittens this young always have that sort of cockeyed look on their faces?  I can only assume it’s because they can’t quite focus their eyes yet. Jill

Response:

AAAACK!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

OMG, Marina.  He is FABulous!  What a little darling (and it’s nothing to do with him looking a little like Boyfriend either  ) I do hope you get him.  You wanted a tabby lad, didn’t you? Wow. Tweed

Response:

And of course, she’s quite right.  I thought you were going to adopt the little orange and white guy you showed us last week, though. Did that fall through?? Yes, it did, they never wrote me back.

Obviously not someone you want to deal with, then. Jill

Response:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj Do most kittens this young always have that sort of cockeyed look on their faces?  I can only assume it’s because they can’t quite focus their eyes yet. Jill

All the kittens I’ve ever seen as young as this – he looks around 4 weeks old to me – have looked like this, and I too have assumed that it’s because of focus. I found a litter of 4 feral kittens once when I was re-fencing a few yards stretch of my paddock.  I disturbed where mommacat had stowed them right under a half-buried paving slab. They looked about the same age as little Leo in this pic, and my goodness, could they hiss/spit!! I used the phone book to find a cat charity and they lent me a trap.  I caught mom in it – a lovely tortie – and took them over to their shelter. They kept the family there, gentled the kittens (except for one blue boy who insisted he wanted to be wild..)  The mother was then spayed and I returned her to my paddock.  I think I know where she came from.  She didn’t come back much after, only now and again although I put dry food down for her. It fits in with what I thought, that she had gone away to have her kittens. All the kittens were adopted, even the blue lad.  I know where he went to, a farm and his name is Thomas.  I have seen him as an adult, so that’s nice. We are talking maybe 15 years ago, when I could never have envisaged I would want to own a cat myself, but kitten fever can overcome any animal lover to do their best if necessary.  They certainly are gorgeous at that age. Tweed

Response:

yodeled: The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

Major butt flash, there. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

Response:

The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested. — Marina, Frank and Miranda. In loving memory of Nikki. marina (dot) kurten (at) iki (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

The woman who handles adoptions of Estonian stray cats just sent me some photos of her current batch of fosters. Now, this comes with a serious, serious KFW. I will not take responsibility for anyone going blind or swooning and hitting their heads from the cuteness. Nor will I take respionsibility for meltdowns. Of humans *or* monitors. http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

Awww. He’s so cute. I want a kitten. — Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat.

Response:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/369334917/382780854QYpDzj She is calling him Leo, and she tells me he has already grown some, and has an ‘oriental’ body and is starting to look a lot like an ocicat. Very short fur and very long body and limbs. I wrote her back and told her I’m definitely interested.

EEEEEK!  What a sweet little bitty!  Who wouldn’t be interested?! Jill

Response:

Question:

Yes, I remember thinking this, and somehow we moved halfway across the country with a pair of 5 week old nursing kittens in one car and two grownup cats in the other, one of whom was a feral with the ability to scream for hours on end, and into a two bedroom apartment after telling the landlord we had two cats because up until two weeks before the move, we DID have two cats. While we still have all four living quite successfully together, we /do/ have a bathroom, livingroom and kitchen as well as the two bedrooms, and we have two sets of incomes–student incomes, but incomes nonetheless. I think it is wise of you to study your situation before you adopt. Your own health/happiness and that of your current cats msut come first.  And these kittens have a home that is caring for them–Kumani and Tyche were sitting alone in a heap of trash at age 3 weeks, in a city with an overburdened animal shelter.  It sounds like those kittens have alternate sources of survival that Kumani and Tyche (And Smokey–as a fullblown forest-dwelling feral, his local shelter rejected him on the basis that he was a "wild animal") didn’t have. Best of luck for those bitties to find good homes. –Fil

Response:

(snippety) Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended.

Argh! If you need help with the KF, I’ll be glad to box Hubert up and ship him to you for a few days.  After a few days you’ll be extremely tired and half your stuff will be broken, and I bet Frank and Nikki will be willing to pay to ship him back themselves.   —— Krista

Response:

On 2005-03-02, Karen penned: Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought….. Too cute picture from that link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/3-7-2004%20008.jpg

They look like they’re riding a shopping cart.

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Too cute picture from that link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/3-7-2004%20008.jpg

Awww! Just what I need. More kitten fever. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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::sigh:: such a hard decision. But, your reasons for not adopting them seem to be very logical. Your place is too small, you already have 2 established older cats, one or both of whom might get his/her nose out of joint, plus the travelling problems. I realize it’s a great temptation, but you should really think it over, it is a BIG decision. Hope the decision doesn’t become too difficult. Jazz & his mama

I know, Lydia. It’s a ‘heart against mind’ situation. I thought of another reason why I shouldn’t adopt them. Frank and Nikki get special food, and I don’t think I could keep the kittens out of it. F&N’s food bowls are on the floor, and always have been, so I’m not going to change that at this stage in their lives. I *know* I shouldn’t adopt kittens. But I just wanna. And they need a home. — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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She sounds so cute!  It must be hard to see litters and litters of fuzzy kittens without wanting some.  What happened with the registration of the kittens?

It turned out that there was something unclear about the papers of the dad (I don’t know the details), so the kittens aren’t ‘pure’. Grr. And the homes they were going to specificaly wanted show cats and breeding cats, so now they don’t want them because they can’t be registered. Except one of the original takers did take one kitten, and another was adopted out through an online adopting service. My sister’s family are asking around now for takers, and if they don’t get any, I guess they’ll end up with five cats instead of two. The good news is, they just bought a bigger house. ;o) — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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Marina: I feel your pain and I understand Hugs to you and F&N and the kittens. Susan M Otis and Chester Wondering how it will all turn out

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten. The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm. My flat’s too small, too. It’s only two rooms, and no place to keep the cats separate (Frank can open most doors), except if I shut the kittens into the bathroom, but I don’t like the idea of that. Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh! — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh!

Awwww!!  KF can do strange things to the human mind.  You’re in the right headspace though, your first loyalties have to lie with Frank and Nikki.  The pictures of the kittens were great — no wonder you long for some babies to snuggle. Regards and Purrs, O J

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Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh!

Awww, you have KF but you know what’s best for Nikki, Frank and everything else.  Maybe if she keeps them you can be an auntie and visit a lot! Jill

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Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh!

Frank can come live with me. Anytime. Waffles

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Lots of hugs and purrs for you, Marina, this is really hard! We are thinking of you, — Polonca & Soncek

Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten.

<snip

Response:

Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh!

Aww Marina! Yes, it sounds like it would be difficult, but I sure understand!! They are such cuties! — Cheryl

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Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them.

<snip I *hate it* when I get put into situations like that.  I think if it weren’t for DH (he’s allergic) I would have  8 or 9 cats….I hope someone you knows adopts them so you can at least visit. -L.

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The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm.

She sounds so cute!  It must be hard to see litters and litters of fuzzy kittens without wanting some.  What happened with the registration of the kittens?

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On 2005-03-02, Irulan penned: ::sigh:: such a hard decision. But, your reasons for not adopting them seem to be very logical. Your place is too small, you already have 2 established older cats, one or both of whom might get his/her nose out of joint, plus the travelling problems. I realize it’s a great temptation, but you should really think it over, it is a BIG decision. Hope the decision doesn’t become too difficult.  Jazz & his mama

Yeah, you don’t want to be in the position where I was with Eros =/ — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

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Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten. The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm. My flat’s too small, too. It’s only two rooms, and no place to keep the cats separate (Frank can open most doors), except if I shut the kittens into the bathroom, but I don’t like the idea of that. Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh! — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought…..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten. The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm. My flat’s too small, too. It’s only two rooms, and no place to keep the cats separate (Frank can open most doors), except if I shut the kittens into the bathroom, but I don’t like the idea of that. Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh! — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki

Can you "loan" them for a few weeks to see how Frank and Nikki react to them? — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

On 2005-03-02, Karen penned: Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought…..

Too cute picture from that link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/3-7-2004%20008.jpg — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

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On 2005-03-02, Karen penned: Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought….. Too cute picture from that link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/3-7-2004%20008.jpg

OMG!!!!   <thud!!! Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On 2005-03-02, Karen penned: Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought….. Too cute picture from that link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/3-7-2004%20008.jpg OMG!!!!   <thud!!!

Move over Theresa!!  EEEEEKKKKKK!!!  <THUNK!!! Hugs, CatNipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

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yodeled: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On 2005-03-02, Karen penned: Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought….. Too cute picture from that link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/3-7-2004%20008.jpg OMG!!!!   <thud!!! Move over Theresa!!  EEEEEKKKKKK!!!  <THUNK!!!

<coming to  Ooooh, fuzzy fuzzy fuzzy <THUD-UD-UD!!!! Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten. The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm. My flat’s too small, too. It’s only two rooms, and no place to keep the cats separate (Frank can open most doors), except if I shut the kittens into the bathroom, but I don’t like the idea of that. Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh!

Do you have a good friend who would adopt — then you could visit them and be theirgood auntie?   Purrs that it will work out for the best.  MLB

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::sigh:: such a hard decision. But, your reasons for not adopting them seem to be very logical. Your place is too small, you already have 2 established older cats, one or both of whom might get his/her nose out of joint, plus the travelling problems. I realize it’s a great temptation, but you should really think it over, it is a BIG decision. Hope the decision doesn’t become too difficult. Jazz & his mama — Irulan from the stars we come to the stars we return from now until the end of time

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten. The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm. My flat’s too small, too. It’s only two rooms, and no place to keep the cats separate (Frank can open most doors), except if I shut the kittens into the bathroom, but I don’t like the idea of that. Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh! — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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oh my god, that picture is just too cute!!! — Irulan from the stars we come to the stars we return from now until the end of time

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the only quibble I have is that Nikki probably would not scratch their eyes out. Sounds much more likely she would mother them eventually. You *could* get a big kitten playpen for them ala: http://www.xs4all.nl/~verhaege/kittens/playpen.htm  (scroll down). I know they have "lidded" ones. It’s a thought….. Well, the blue kittens weren’t registered. Two of them have been homed, but there are three left. I would really like to take in two of them, but… I’m afraid it would be totally selfish to adopt them. Nikki usually hates other cats (though lately she has been mothering several of her toys, most notably the piggy). And I’m afraid that Frank, who I think is starting to feel a bit old and feeble, might be intimidated by a young strapping boy kitten. The biggest problem would be travelling to the island in summer. It’s hard enough to take two cats on a four-hour bus drive + half an hour on a boat, taking four along would be near impossible. I guess I know it would be madness to take on these two kittens, but at the same time I can’t forget about the little girl who fell asleep on my arm. My flat’s too small, too. It’s only two rooms, and no place to keep the cats separate (Frank can open most doors), except if I shut the kittens into the bathroom, but I don’t like the idea of that. Argh, I know I can’t adopt them. But I just wanna! Nikki would probably scratch their eyes out. Frank would probably be deeply offended. Argh! — Marina, Frank and Nikki marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

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Question:

And Tallulah did NOT like it.  He figured it out all by himself; got in and made a teeny little poop and scratched around, trying to cover it but missing entirely.  Tallulah was upset and dragged it out to eat it.  I backed her off, picked it up and put it back in the box, and scratched litter over it while both cats looked on.  Hubert stayed in the box to scratch some more; Tallulah then scruffed him and dragged him away from the box while I was washing my hands.  *sigh*   Anyway, I do hope Hubert keeps it up and teaches his mom to do the same. Tallulah’s not liking any of Hubert’s steps to becoming a Big Kitty; she doesn’t want him to eat cat food or drink water or use the litterbox.  It seems to me that she’s being *seriously* overprotective, but I don’t know what to do about it.  I am inclined to mostly just trust Tallulah to raise her kitten, but I certainly don’t want Hubert to get discouraged. —— Krista

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Poor Mamma cat.  Is this her first kit?  Has to be hard for her especially as he is so big. She has likely had bad experiences with water, and doesn’t want him to drown in the mean ole bowl.  Also with one kitten she probably has enough milk to be uncomfortable and doesn’t really appreciate him dinning out. And I’d be willing to bet that after a little consideration, she will decide the litter box isn’t such an awful idea.  And even try to convince everyone she thought of it first. Jo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Tallulah did NOT like it.  He figured it out all by himself; got in and made a teeny little poop and scratched around, trying to cover it but missing entirely.  Tallulah was upset and dragged it out to eat it.  I backed her off, picked it up and put it back in the box, and scratched litter over it while both cats looked on.  Hubert stayed in the box to scratch some more; Tallulah then scruffed him and dragged him away from the box while I was washing my hands.  *sigh*   Anyway, I do hope Hubert keeps it up and teaches his mom to do the same. Tallulah’s not liking any of Hubert’s steps to becoming a Big Kitty; she doesn’t want him to eat cat food or drink water or use the litterbox.  It seems to me that she’s being *seriously* overprotective, but I don’t know what to do about it.  I am inclined to mostly just trust Tallulah to raise her kitten, but I certainly don’t want Hubert to get discouraged. —— Krista

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(snippety) I think Tallulah probably ate the poop, because that’s what they do in the wild, to protect the kittens from predators that would be attracted by the smell of the poop.  she hasn’t gotten it into her head yet that there are NO predators inside! —

Yes, that’s what I think too.  Hubert knows better, though; he knows that the only fearsome predators in his world are DH and me.   —— Krista

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In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", 16 Aug 2004: Tallulah’s not liking any of Hubert’s steps to becoming a Big Kitty; she doesn’t want him to eat cat food or drink water or use the litterbox.  It seems to me that she’s being *seriously* overprotective, but I don’t know what to do about it.  I am inclined to mostly just trust Tallulah to raise her kitten, but I certainly don’t want Hubert to get discouraged. Strict mommy! Any way, I’m sure it will work out and I’m so glad you have them both.

I’m glad too!   —— Krista

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Tallulah’s not liking any of Hubert’s steps to becoming a Big Kitty; LOL!  Some human mothers behave in similar fashion – I hope it doesn’t leave the same psychological scars on the offspring with cats!

I don’t think it will in this case – Hubert seems pretty unfazed, and DH tells me that as soon as I take Tallulah outside Hubert zooms over to the food and water to eat and drink without interference.  Hee hee. —— Krista

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(snippety) I think Tallulah probably ate the poop, because that’s what they do in the wild, to protect the kittens from predators that would be attracted by the smell of the poop.  she hasn’t gotten it into her head yet that there are NO predators inside! — Yes, that’s what I think too.  Hubert knows better, though; he knows that the only fearsome predators in his world are DH and me.  

Is he still skittish around you? Any sign of him calming down? — Marina, Frank and Nikki Email marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/frankiennikki

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – probably has enough milk to be uncomfortable and doesn’t really appreciate him dinning out. And I’d be willing to bet that after a little consideration, she will decide the litter box isn’t such an awful idea.  And even try to convince everyone she thought of it first. Jo I hadn’t thought about the too much mmilk issue; considering how swollen the poor little girl is, you’re probably right.  But dang, he’s gotta be weaned some time!  

Yeah, but not necessarily at 22 days old.  It will be a gradual process, I’m sure.  Good luck!  He sounds very precocious for one so young Jill

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I don’t think it will in this case – Hubert seems pretty unfazed, and DH tells me that as soon as I take Tallulah outside Hubert zooms over to the food and water to eat and drink without interference.  Hee hee.

   Little rascal has a mind of his own, doesn’t he?  He’s gonna be *some* kitty-cat one day!!!    Jeanne

Response:

Is he still skittish around you? Any sign of him calming down?

He’s better, but still wary.  He will play with me with the fuzzy tasselled ball on a string (gotta order more of those!!) and will bat at my fingers sometimes if I waggle them at him.  He will stand and stare solemnly at us instead of running away immediately, but doesn’t usually want to get too close. I pet him some when he’s too sleepy to protest, but it’s sooooo hard to let him set the pace and not just swoop him up and smooch him to pieces!  ;-) —— Krista

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He’s better, but still wary.  He will play with me with the fuzzy tasselled ball on a string (gotta order more of those!!) and will bat at my fingers sometimes if I waggle them at him.  He will stand and stare solemnly at us instead of running away immediately, but doesn’t usually want to get too close. I pet him some when he’s too sleepy to protest, but it’s sooooo hard to let him set the pace and not just swoop him up and smooch him to pieces!  ;-)

Aww, I probably could not resist. Purrs that he lets you do that soon. — Marina, Frank and Nikki Email marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/frankiennikki

Response:

Poor Mamma cat.  Is this her first kit?  Has to be hard for her especially as he is so big. She has likely had bad experiences with water, and doesn’t want him to drown in the mean ole bowl.  Also with one kitten she probably has enough milk to be uncomfortable and doesn’t really appreciate him dinning out. And I’d be willing to bet that after a little consideration, she will decide the litter box isn’t such an awful idea.  And even try to convince everyone she thought of it first. Jo

I have no idea whether this is her first; the first time I ever saw Tallulah was only a few days before Hubert is born, but Tallulah seems so young herself that I would bet he’s her first. I hadn’t thought about the too much mmilk issue; considering how swollen the poor little girl is, you’re probably right.  But dang, he’s gotta be weaned some time!   I am hoping that what you said about the litter box is exactly what will happen.  We’ve got our fingers crossed! —— Krista

Response:

When I adopt a kitten, I usually do show him/her where the box is, plop the kitten into it, and maybe take the little front paws and dig a bit to give them the idea.

When I brought Nikki home, I plopped her in the box. Then she went exploring and challenging Frank and eating, and a half hour later, she went to the box and used it. She had never used a box before, but we never had any problems after that.Wish Tallulah would get the message as easily, but of course, she has spent a longer time outside (Nikki was only 2 months old) and gotten used to the outside rules, which are different than inside rules. — Marina, Frank and Nikki Email marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/frankiennikki

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In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", "jmcquown" My, my, we *are* a bunch of old rock ‘n roll fans here, aren’t we! Jill (rockin’ the casbah, er, cat box)

I heard a parody of that song called "clean the cat box".  lol — Cheryl

Response:

In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", 16 Aug 2004: Tallulah’s not liking any of Hubert’s steps to becoming a Big Kitty; she doesn’t want him to eat cat food or drink water or use the litterbox.  It seems to me that she’s being *seriously* overprotective, but I don’t know what to do about it.  I am inclined to mostly just trust Tallulah to raise her kitten, but I certainly don’t want Hubert to get discouraged.

Strict mommy! Any way, I’m sure it will work out and I’m so glad you have them both. — Cheryl

Response:

things to say about Re: Hubert used the litterbox!!  (Sort of GW): I watched one of the FF when they’d been inside for about a week – I have NEVER shown a kitten, not even Weeble, how to use a litterbox, they just took to it as it was there (and they’re all diggers, flinging litter (and whatever it is stuck to) everywhere) –

When I adopt a kitten, I usually do show him/her where the box is, plop the kitten into it, and maybe take the little front paws and dig a bit to give them the idea. — "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. " – the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL

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I watched one of the FF when they’d been inside for about a week – I have NEVER shown a kitten, not even Weeble, how to use a litterbox, they just took to it as it was there (and they’re all diggers, flinging litter (and whatever it is stuck to) everywhere)

(snip) Cue The Clash: "Rocking the catbox, rocking the catcox." Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com alt.tv.frasier FAQ: http://www.im-listening.net/FAQ/

Response:

I watched one of the FF when they’d been inside for about a week – I have NEVER shown a kitten, not even Weeble, how to use a litterbox, they just took to it as it was there (and they’re all diggers, flinging litter (and whatever it is stuck to) everywhere) (snip) Cue The Clash: "Rocking the catbox, rocking the catcox."

My, my, we *are* a bunch of old rock ‘n roll fans here, aren’t we! Jill (rockin’ the casbah, er, cat box) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com alt.tv.frasier FAQ: http://www.im-listening.net/FAQ/

Response:

I watched one of the FF when they’d been inside for about a week – I have NEVER shown a kitten, not even Weeble, how to use a litterbox, they just took to it as it was there (and they’re all diggers, flinging litter (and whatever it is stuck to) everywhere) – I believe it was Ernie.  He made a pile of litter, then dug a hole in it (kinda looked like Mt St Helens) then proceeded to poop, missing the hole (it fell on the side of his little mountain), and when he was finished, he filled in his hole, missing the poop.  I went over, laughing, after he was done and buried it for him (using a plastic fork) because it STUNK. I think Tallulah probably ate the poop, because that’s what they do in the wild, to protect the kittens from predators that would be attracted by the smell of the poop.  she hasn’t gotten it into her head yet that there are NO predators inside! — The ONE and ONLY lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)

Question:

OK.  We *think* that went well.  She just left.  It was a full day since she had to talk with all six of us.  She spoke with YS over the phone since he’s still at his father’s house. First she spoke with me for nearly 2.5 hrs, then while I was working on lunch, she spoke with each of the 3 kids who are home, then after lunch she spoke with YS.  After that, it was 2.5 hrs with Chewy, followed by abt 1.5 hrs with the two of us together. Everything went smoothly, especially considering OS’s trip to ER last night for a severe asthma attack and my oven chosing *today* to stop working.  We recovered smoothly, the kids were all great, and it wasn’t Chaos Central here… for a change. <fingers crossed> Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

In article <urttf09s2ptub026cq6daueicdop0rc…@4ax.com>, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe  <kitten…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >First she spoke with me for nearly 2.5 hrs, then while I was working >on lunch, she spoke with each of the 3 kids who are home, then after >lunch she spoke with YS.  After that, it was 2.5 hrs with Chewy, >followed by abt 1.5 hrs with the two of us together. >Kitten

Wow!  That was a long day of it!  I’m sure you did fine, based on all you post here. When we had a home study for my son’s LD testing, it only lasted about 1.5 hours at the most, and he was sleeping through the whole thing. What a difference… Deb R.

Response:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:16:49 +0000 (UTC), dr…@wpi.edu (Deborah M – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Riel) wrote: >In article <urttf09s2ptub026cq6daueicdop0rc…@4ax.com>, >Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe  <kitten…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote: >>First she spoke with me for nearly 2.5 hrs, then while I was working >>on lunch, she spoke with each of the 3 kids who are home, then after >>lunch she spoke with YS.  After that, it was 2.5 hrs with Chewy, >>followed by abt 1.5 hrs with the two of us together. >>Kitten >Wow!  That was a long day of it!  I’m sure you did fine, based on all >you post here. >When we had a home study for my son’s LD testing, it only lasted about >1.5 hours at the most, and he was sleeping through the whole thing. >What a difference…

Well, this *is* for foster/adoption.  They want to make sure the homes they place kids in are pretty stable.  Lots of questions for Chewy and me, individually, about our childhood, our parents, how we deal with discipline, what one thing we each like most about the other, what one thing would we each like to change about the other, etc.  The questions they asked the two of us together were similar. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

sorry new to the board.. who are you adopting or fostering a family memeber? I was a foster parent to over 20 children in the past a few were related that i eventually took custody of. relative placement and foster care placement are two whole differant entities in my Opinion. good luck. I personally chose to leave the system but it was great for awhile. Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kitten-…@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote in message <news:urttf09s2ptub026cq6daueicdop0rciqa@4ax.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK.  We *think* that went well.  She just left.  It was a full day > since she had to talk with all six of us.  She spoke with YS over the > phone since he’s still at his father’s house. > First she spoke with me for nearly 2.5 hrs, then while I was working > on lunch, she spoke with each of the 3 kids who are home, then after > lunch she spoke with YS.  After that, it was 2.5 hrs with Chewy, > followed by abt 1.5 hrs with the two of us together. > Everything went smoothly, especially considering OS’s trip to ER last > night for a severe asthma attack and my oven chosing *today* to stop > working.  We recovered smoothly, the kids were all great, and it > wasn’t Chaos Central here… for a change. > <fingers crossed> > Kitten > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds > the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves > those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle > or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands > you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. > — Ty Murray > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

On 24 Jul 2004 03:02:57 -0700, charltrombley…@msn.com (charlene) wrote: >sorry new to the board.. who are you adopting or fostering a family >memeber? I was a foster parent to over 20 children in the past

Welcome to the group and kudos for fostering.  :-) We have four teens in our home:  YS(14) is our son from my first marriage; YD(nearly 15) is our daughter from a previous marriage of my husband’s; OS(16) is our son from that same previous marriage of my husband’s; and TF(17) is OS’s best friend, who has been living with us since November and for whom we received signed guardianship papers in June.  OD(24) is our daughter from my husband’s first marriage.  She was grown and on her own when we met. We are trying to adopt a sibling group of four.  They are not related to us.  Their ages are 2, 3.5, 10, and 12.  Currently, they are seperated in foster care, the younger two in one home and the older two in another.  They get to see each other "at least once a month." Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

Congratulations on getting through your evaluation. I hated that part of the process. I thought you would like to see this letter from the book, Dear Judge. It is available on Amazon <><><><><><><> Dear Judge, Please have the valuator come back out to our house. The day she came was not a day like all the rest.  The kitchen caught fire because my brother was trying to make cheese grill sandwiches for us kids to eat so mom could talk to the valuator. Tell Miss Hill the dog never peed on anyone before and we will put him outside this time. Yours truly, Bobby J. <><><><><><><> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe wrote: >OK.  We *think* that went well.  She just left.  It was a full day >since she had to talk with all six of us.  She spoke with YS over the >phone since he’s still at his father’s house. >First she spoke with me for nearly 2.5 hrs, then while I was working >on lunch, she spoke with each of the 3 kids who are home, then after >lunch she spoke with YS.  After that, it was 2.5 hrs with Chewy, >followed by abt 1.5 hrs with the two of us together. >Everything went smoothly, especially considering OS’s trip to ER last >night for a severe asthma attack and my oven chosing *today* to stop >working.  We recovered smoothly, the kids were all great, and it >wasn’t Chaos Central here… for a change. ><fingers crossed> >Kitten >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds >the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves >those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle >or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands >you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. >– Ty Murray >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:07:04 -0500, Kelly <divo…@livingston.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Congratulations on getting through your evaluation. >I hated that part of the process. >I thought you would like to see this letter from the book, Dear Judge. >It is available on Amazon ><><><><><><><> >Dear Judge, >Please have the valuator come back out to our house. The day she came was >not a day like all the rest.  The kitchen caught fire because my brother >was >trying to make cheese grill sandwiches for us kids to eat so mom could talk >to the valuator. >Tell Miss Hill the dog never peed on anyone before and we will put him >outside this time. >Yours truly, >Bobby J. ><><><><><><><>

LOL… thanks! Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

Question:

"Vicki Robinson" <vjr…@xcski.com> wrote in message

news:cbs8g8$mqh$1@allhats.xcski.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In a previous article, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> said: > >to set the limits…..these are kids that are 6 years old and 9 years > >old….. > OK, six and nine.  They’re still very self-involved (and this is > appropriate for their ages) and you cannot expect them to just swallow > this huge change in their lives, especially with biomom stirring > things up at her end.  It’ll take 5 to 7 years.  (Yes.  Maybe less, > maybe more, but there *is no quick fix*.) > >it’s stupid things like that where we > >can’t agree……or for example..jumping on the cofee table…or at the > >kitchen table…and they’ve told my mother to shut up when she asks them > >to please sit down at the table…to me that is blatant disrespect…and i > >not only fault them for it but my husband as well….. > That would chap my cheeks too.

Mine too… > >i am going to talk > >to him tonite…i’ve been writing down ‘notes’ so that i remember > >everything i want to discuss with him…i tend to get upset and forget > >important facts when i need to keep things in order….i want to discuss > >my role with them..he says he wants me to flat out just act like a > >parent..

Then he has to back you up, flat out. > >set limits…i.e…no jumping on the furniture…no tormenting the > >pets…no telling adults to shut up…and a HUGE one for me is i want to > >discuss the fact that there is a jealousy issue…the little one has > >issues…whenever he sees my husband and i together he throws fits or > >climbs in between us and says ‘dont talk to her’…i want to discuss this > >and make it known that is not acceptable….i feel like if it is allowed > >to go on it will only get worse…. > I disagree strongly.  He’s a little kid whose world is turning upside > down.  He needs hugs and squeezes and lots and lots of reassurance > that he’s not losing his dad to you.  Yes, *you* know that’s not the > case, but he doesn’t.  The worst thing you can do is forbid him to ask > for reassurance, and that’s all he’s doing.  You’re an adult, you can > wait for attention after the kids are in bed or after they’ve gone > back to biomom.

So, are you saying that since it upsets this child, she should be willing to ccept having her husband refrain from showing his affection and attention to her in front of the child?  If so, i strongly disagree.  If he climbs between you, make room and say "Come on > up here, Sport.  What did you think of that thunderstorm last night?" > His dad should be giving them whatever affection he can, in front of > you, and you should be supporting that with a glad heart.

This, I agree with, but not to the extent that the chold be permitted to dictate whether or not his father may show his affection to his wife. Lori — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 – Release Date: 6/27/04

Response:

"Kerri Clair" <kerricl…@aol.comma> wrote in message

news:20040630052820.19363.00000658@mb-m17.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive: yes > "fate1003" djfate1003@private wrote: > >these are kids that are 6 years old and 9 years > >old….. there are just things that no matter how i try to look at it > >different i have a problem with…for example..i have a little dog that is > >terrified of them…and they torment him..chase him…shake things in his > >face…and when he snaps at them my husband gets mad at the dog….*I* > >feel like they have been told time and again to leave the dog alone and > >that the dog shouldnt be punished….it’s stupid things like that where we > >can’t agree…… > Animal abuse is not a ’stupid thing’.  One indication of possible serious > problems for children in their future is if they are abusing animals today. > You absolutely can not allow your pet to continue to be abused and then be > punished for being abused.  That’s a recipe for turning even a well-behaved dog > into a fear-biter.  Your husband is being incredibly thick-headed about this > issue, but maybe it’ll get through to him if you also tell him it’s dangerous > for his children. If they are not taught to properly treat an animal they are > SURE to get bitten, if not by your dog then surely by another dog that they > abuse.  What they are doing is horribly cruel, your husband’s response is even > worse because it’s not only teaching them that they aren’t doing anything wrong > but it’s also teaching them that the dog is doing wrong by trying to defend > itself! Is he trying to raise little bullies?  Keep your dog AWAY from those > children!

ODL, how did I not see this.  Take your little dog and get out.  Anyone who allows a helpless dog to be harmed deserves done to him whatever treatment was done to the dog.  I could never live with a person who condoned such a thing. Geri

Response:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:29:19 -0400, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote: >welllllllllll welllllllllll…..boy do i feel stupid…..he pushed the >issue at lunch..and we talked…but boy oh boy did it NOT turn out how i >had hoped….

I spoke with my husband about this to try to get his perspective. Some of the reactions you’ve listed here are similar to reactions he used to have.  Now, granted, he would *never* have allowed animal abuse, jumping on the tables, or being so *blatantly* disrespectful to others (although some of that happened when he wasn’t around to see it).  But he had similar defensive reactions when things were brought up that needed to be addressed. (He asked me, "Was I really that bad?"  I had to answer honestly. Thankfully, he very rarely gets that defensive these days.) >he says i dont own up to my issues with the situation…and i think that i >do….but he says i am overly picky….i admit to pickiness..i do…i’m >high maintenance and i know it….however i didn’t see that as the >problem……

OK, first things first.  Don’t make assumptions about what he means. You need to find out what he means by "overly picky."  Tell him, "Honey, if there’s something I’m doing that I shouldn’t, I need to know.  I can’t fix it if I don’t know what the problem is.  Please help me with this." Of course, if the problem actually has absolutely nothing to do with you, but is entirely his and BM’s, watch out for defensive backlash. But if you keep being sincere and asking what you can do to help, *IF* he reacts like Chewy, in calmer moments he’ll start working with you. >lets just say that the situation got pretty ugly..at subway…he thinks i >was raised completely wrong and the statement was made ‘that is not how i >have raised them and i dont think it’s fair to have them come here and >change the rules’…..

Something I’ve learned through dealing with defensiveness in others: A lot of times they don’t mean what they say.  It’s just a mechanism to get the focus off what *they* see as *their* mistakes.  I’d think this was a male thing, but YD did it, too.   I’ve come to realize it’s a mechanism used by people who haven’t learned effective communication and problem-solving skills.  They see an "insurmountable" problem, feel helpless, think it is all their fault, and lash out at everyone around them when it is brought up, all the while trying to avoid responsibility for the backlash. It’s frustrating as hell, but it can be gotten through.  How old is your husband?  Chewy was 42 when we met, 43 when we married.  OS and YD were 11 and 9.  They’ve all learned to look at a problem and start looking for solutions instead of wigging out over the problem.  (OS still reverts once in a while, but that’s how people grow.)  There *is* hope. >so i figured that the discussion was pretty much out of control by this >point…and i said ‘ok honey…why dont you tell me what your rules are so >that i can be aware of what is ok’ and he got PISSED…said ‘why did the >conversation have to go there’ and that was the end of that…until we got >in the car and he told me what i said was disrespectful to him…i asked >HOW and he didnt answer so i said i was sorry that what i said made him >feel that way and that just got him more mad and he said that i dont admit >to being wrong that i just said its all him….MY MY….if i am wrong then >i am wrong…..

(OK, still basing my comments on how things went with Chewy and me.) You weren’t being disrespectful.  He *knows* there’s a problem.  He *knows* that he is responsible for the existance of the problem.  He probably feels guilty as hell.  And HE HATES IT. It’s easier to re-direct it to you than it is to look honestly at the situation.  Because if you follow along in the re-direct, then he doesn’t have to look at that BIG, UGLY PROBLEM.  Then he doesn’t have to feel guilty. BUT… and this is a huge but… the re-direct doesn’t totally work. He’ll get mad at you for being upset that he said it’s your fault. He’ll get mad at himself for upsetting you.  And you’ll catch the heat. >so it ended with me crying, him getting out of the car saying ‘there is no >way we are ready for 30 days’ and i said what do you mean and he slammed >the door and walked into his office….

He’s right.  He knows you’re not ready for 30 days.  And he hates it. Thing is, it doesn’t matter if you’re ready for it or not.  It’s happening.  HE has to take control of his boys.  HE has to take on the responsibility.  You and your dog are being punished for who HE and BM are allowing the boys to be. And I’m betting it’s eating him up inside.  He just can’t face it, let alone say it. >so now its even worse than before..and i can’t help but feel this is my >fault for not just going along with what he wanted in the first place…

Nope.  It’s his fault for not facing up to the reality of what’s going on. >he said at lunch that the issue is ‘that its his kids not mine’..and that >is not the issue. i want them to see that this is another family for them >to have…not just daddy…. >i dont know what to do now..i’m sitting at my desk crying thinking that i >have made a huge mistake.

Don’t let him throw that "they’re my kids, not yours" hogwash in your face.  Put the ball in *his* court and leave it there.  Don’t let him put the responsibility on your shoulders.  You’re new to the situation that *HE* created.   "Honey, either we’re a family now, or we’re not.  It’s up to you, but I need to know so that I know how to deal with things.  You and I need to work on this *together*.  How do you need me to handle my end of it?  I’m willing to work with you, but I need to know what we’re doing." Before you decide to follow the advice of others and get out, before you decide to work on it and to try to see it through, I’d advise you to pray.  And pray hard.   If you’re not a praying person, think real deeply about the situation. Is what you feel for your husband, what you truly feel, the things that brought you together – is that enough for you to totally commit yourself to working this through?   Think carefully about it.  Situations this difficult take *total* commitment.  They also take you being willing to know yourself, all your strengths and weaknesses, and you being willing to lay yourself out there and get walked all over, emotionally trompled and bruised, before things start getting better. It’s hard work.  REALLY hard work.  But if you get to the point where he’s working with you, then the two of you are working together to save your family, then it’s worth it, IMO. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

Hi,    I’m NOT new at this and I’ts STILL just as hard when the "real" Mom is working against you the whole time. Sometimes I just want to tell my Fiance- "Screw you and your rotten kids too" and leave. How ever I do come to my senses, and the brood and put a smile back on my face and try it ALL over again the next day. We have ours( his) every other week this summer 24/7. Boko

Response:

Boko wrote: > Hi, >    I’m NOT new at this and I’ts STILL just as hard when the "real" > Mom

"Real Mom"? Do they have a "Fake Mom" too?  Or maybe an  "Artificial Mom" as well as their "Real Mom"? Or perhaps they have:  a Biological Mother, which in this group is referred to as a BM As well as: a Biological Dad or BD (also used is BF for BioFather, though I find that confused with Boy Friend with so many live in situations.)  and potentially the children have:  Step-Mother aka SM  Step-Father aka SF Collectively they are: Step-Parents or SP’s Biological Parents aka BP’s. Cal~

Response:

rebecca wrote: > But my first impulses aren’t always the most productive.

Well, my first impulse would’ve been so much less nice than this, so I’d say your first impulse would be more productive than mine.  I’d have told him to stick it where the sun don’t shine. And to Fate: You did not "make him" feel anything, it’s his decision to feel however he feels. I will say this as nice as I can, please do not have any children with this man until and unless you can sort these parenting issues. These are the things that divorces are made of (among others, of course). > You guys need to do some more talking, maybe with a pro.

Absolutely. Cal~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> rebecca

Response:

Delurking to welcome you to my nightmare – and to the group  I’m going to jump right in here and quote and respond with my thoughts and experience…  I have no children and my DH has one SD, now 14, (7 when we met) who visits us for 2 weeks a year.  He goes to see her 150 miles away one weekend a month.  So I really only have to be around her 14 days out of 365.  Piece of cake, right? >he says i dont own up to my issues with the situation…and i think that i >do….but he says i am overly picky….i admit to pickiness..i do…i’m >high maintenance and i know it….however i didn’t see that as the >problem……

Yes, I suppose to some degree I am picky.  I’m not used to having kids running around the house  - much less kids who have no rules.  I kinda stole mine from Kitten.  There are only two:  Respect other people.  Respect yourself. (Respect for other people’s things follows naturally.  Take everything of value and lock it up.  You’d be amazed how many things you own that you can put locks on or already have locks and you just never noticed because you didn’t need them.  My SD would *intentionally* do things just to get a rise out of me. Don’t take that bait, it won’t help).   >and i said ‘ok honey…why dont you tell me what your rules are so >that i can be aware of what is ok’ and he got PISSED…said ‘why did the >conversation have to go there’

Because he’s *never* had any rules.  Period.  The end.  And other people have *called* him on it, probably his family and maybe even the exwife.   He wants to be the DisneyLand Dad.  All fun – all the time. >so now its even worse than before..and i can’t help but feel this is my >fault for not just going along with what he wanted in the first place…

Well of course you do.  He’s already minimized *your* feelings and made you feel like it’s your fault because you are expecting the most basic courtesies from his children.  Fact:  He has unruly children because he’s never been man enough to make rules and keep them and he’s never cared *enough* about these children to do so.  He blew up because he does NOT want to admit the merely obvious.   >he said at lunch that the issue is ‘that its his kids not mine’..and that >is not the issue. i want them to see that this is another family for them >to have…not just daddy….

Yup, I had that "You just hate my daughter" thrown at me a few times myself. Luckily we had these *blow ups* early enough on that I really *couldn’t* hate her.  Hell I didn’t know her well enough for that!!!  But it was his *ace in the hole*.  If all else fails, throw that Old Line out and storm out of the house.   >i dont know what to do now..i’m sitting at my desk crying thinking that i >have made a huge mistake.

7 years or so have passed since I came here hysterical and I’ve learned alot since then:   Don’t be part of pickups and dropoffs.  NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!!! Make sure you have other plans.  Even if you have to make them a mere 10 minutes in advance. When SD comes for her 2 week stint I work long hours, I go out with friends, I go out of town, I ride my bike.  I come home to sleep and shower.  But I can do that because it’s only 2 weeks out of the year.  (That 2 weeks starts in 3 days.  I catch myself lurking here just around her visitation…) Remember, locks are your friend!   You said your DH just got joint custody right?  The kids are going to be at your house alot *more*????  And you have a tortured pet to worry about?  Where are these wonderful children going to be when you two are at work all day? You aren’t ready for a 30 day stint.  You can’t even handle a weekend.  AND THAT’S NOT YOUR FAULT!!!  Can you take your pet and go somewhere else until they are gone?  I think you really need some space at this point. Healea Sternstar –  62 cleric Skila Windrunner – 58 ranger Jennaii – 46 druid Tholuxe Paells http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=875403

Response:

"fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote in message

news:5b496217fb3b6ea81b56df66dfc89422@localhost.talkaboutparenting.com… > lets just say that the situation got pretty ugly..at subway…he thinks i > was raised completely wrong and the statement was made ‘that is not how i > have raised them and i dont think it’s fair to have them come here and > change the rules’…..

boy, where’s jennaii when you need her? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> so i figured that the discussion was pretty much out of control by this > point…and i said ‘ok honey…why dont you tell me what your rules are so > that i can be aware of what is ok’ and he got PISSED…said ‘why did the > conversation have to go there’ and that was the end of that…until we got > in the car and he told me what i said was disrespectful to him…i asked > HOW and he didnt answer so i said i was sorry that what i said made him > feel that way and that just got him more mad and he said that i dont admit > to being wrong that i just said its all him….MY MY….if i am wrong then > i am wrong….. > so it ended with me crying, him getting out of the car saying ‘there is no > way we are ready for 30 days’ and i said what do you mean and he slammed > the door and walked into his office…. > so now its even worse than before..and i can’t help but feel this is my > fault for not just going along with what he wanted in the first place… > he said at lunch that the issue is ‘that its his kids not mine’..and that > is not the issue. i want them to see that this is another family for them > to have…not just daddy…. > i dont know what to do now..i’m sitting at my desk crying thinking that i > have made a huge mistake.

Hmm.  Well, my first impuse, I  guess, would be to completely remove myself from any caring for these kids at all.  He can do the cooking, laundry, shopping, disciplining etc when they are with you.  Because putting yourself in a position of less authority than a babysitter with children you are expected to care for is a real drag.  In theory, it might also point out to husband that while he can have a SM who isn’t a parenting partner, he doesn’t get a paid slave in the process. But my first impulses aren’t always the most productive. You guys need to do some more talking, maybe with a pro. rebecca

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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:29:19 -0400, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->so i figured that the discussion was pretty much out of control by this >point…and i said ‘ok honey…why dont you tell me what your rules are so >that i can be aware of what is ok’ and he got PISSED…said ‘why did the >conversation have to go there’ and that was the end of that…until we got >in the car and he told me what i said was disrespectful to him…i asked >HOW and he didnt answer so i said i was sorry that what i said made him >feel that way and that just got him more mad and he said that i dont admit >to being wrong that i just said its all him….MY MY….if i am wrong then >i am wrong….. >so it ended with me crying, him getting out of the car saying ‘there is no >way we are ready for 30 days’ and i said what do you mean and he slammed >the door and walked into his office…. >so now its even worse than before..and i can’t help but feel this is my >fault for not just going along with what he wanted in the first place… >he said at lunch that the issue is ‘that its his kids not mine’..and that >is not the issue. i want them to see that this is another family for them >to have…not just daddy…. >i dont know what to do now..i’m sitting at my desk crying thinking that i >have made a huge mistake.

Ooooh, has he got some major issues.  Mind if I forward this to my husband to get a male perspective?  He and I used to have similar "discussions" on occasion. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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"fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote in message

news:5b496217fb3b6ea81b56df66dfc89422@localhost.talkaboutparenting.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> welllllllllll welllllllllll…..boy do i feel stupid…..he pushed the > issue at lunch..and we talked…but boy oh boy did it NOT turn out how i > had hoped…. > he says i dont own up to my issues with the situation…and i think that i > do….but he says i am overly picky….i admit to pickiness..i do…i’m > high maintenance and i know it….however i didn’t see that as the > problem…… > lets just say that the situation got pretty ugly..at subway…he thinks i > was raised completely wrong and the statement was made ‘that is not how i > have raised them and i dont think it’s fair to have them come here and > change the rules’….. > so i figured that the discussion was pretty much out of control by this > point…and i said ‘ok honey…why dont you tell me what your rules are so > that i can be aware of what is ok’ and he got PISSED…said ‘why did the > conversation have to go there’ and that was the end of that…until we got > in the car and he told me what i said was disrespectful to him…i asked > HOW and he didnt answer so i said i was sorry that what i said made him > feel that way and that just got him more mad and he said that i dont admit > to being wrong that i just said its all him….MY MY….if i am wrong then > i am wrong….. > so it ended with me crying, him getting out of the car saying ‘there is no > way we are ready for 30 days’ and i said what do you mean and he slammed > the door and walked into his office…. > so now its even worse than before..and i can’t help but feel this is my > fault for not just going along with what he wanted in the first place… > he said at lunch that the issue is ‘that its his kids not mine’..and that > is not the issue. i want them to see that this is another family for them > to have…not just daddy…. > i dont know what to do now..i’m sitting at my desk crying thinking that i > have made a huge mistake.

I am sorry, but this sounds like a complete trainwreck.  The problems you have are with your SO, not the kids.  IMO, you would be wise to bail out of that relationship.   He doesn’t respect you.  Alternatively, if you feel you can’t do that, I would suggest going to stay at a hotel or with a family member for a month until the children are gone.   Why would you want to put up with all of that misery in your own house? Geri

Response:

welllllllllll welllllllllll…..boy do i feel stupid…..he pushed the issue at lunch..and we talked…but boy oh boy did it NOT turn out how i had hoped…. he says i dont own up to my issues with the situation…and i think that i do….but he says i am overly picky….i admit to pickiness..i do…i’m high maintenance and i know it….however i didn’t see that as the problem…… lets just say that the situation got pretty ugly..at subway…he thinks i was raised completely wrong and the statement was made ‘that is not how i have raised them and i dont think it’s fair to have them come here and change the rules’….. so i figured that the discussion was pretty much out of control by this point…and i said ‘ok honey…why dont you tell me what your rules are so that i can be aware of what is ok’ and he got PISSED…said ‘why did the conversation have to go there’ and that was the end of that…until we got in the car and he told me what i said was disrespectful to him…i asked HOW and he didnt answer so i said i was sorry that what i said made him feel that way and that just got him more mad and he said that i dont admit to being wrong that i just said its all him….MY MY….if i am wrong then i am wrong….. so it ended with me crying, him getting out of the car saying ‘there is no way we are ready for 30 days’ and i said what do you mean and he slammed the door and walked into his office…. so now its even worse than before..and i can’t help but feel this is my fault for not just going along with what he wanted in the first place… he said at lunch that the issue is ‘that its his kids not mine’..and that is not the issue. i want them to see that this is another family for them to have…not just daddy…. i dont know what to do now..i’m sitting at my desk crying thinking that i have made a huge mistake.

Response:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:33:29 -0400, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote: >we live in el paso. i think i noted before the kids age..they are >young….ages 6 and 9…….

We’re outside of Austin, so the "real life" resources we use may or may not be available in El Paso.  There should be some sort of step-parenting support group local to you, though.  Do you attend church?  There may be resources available there, too. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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we live in el paso. i think i noted before the kids age..they are young….ages 6 and 9…….

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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:49:06 -0400, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote: >.i kinda agree that the parents should be the one >to set the limits…..these are kids that are 6 years old and 9 years >old…..

The jealousy issue you spoke of is definitely going to be there with teh 6yo since his BM seems to be fanning the flames, from what you’ve posted.  That will take time, patience, and firmness.  "No, Little Johnny, she will *not* be going away and she *WILL* be talking to me. She’s my wife, I’m her husband, and that’s what husbands and wives do." > there are just things that no matter how i try to look at it >different i have a problem with…

Those are your "deal breakers."  We all have them.  And know what?  I agree with yours.  More below: >for example..i have a little dog that is >terrified of them…and they torment him..chase him…shake things in his >face…and when he snaps at them my husband gets mad at the dog….*I* >feel like they have been told time and again to leave the dog alone and >that the dog shouldnt be punished….

Does your husband realize that the surest way to turn a sweet-natured dog mean is to torment him?  It’s a definite safety concern.  For the children’s safety and for the dog’s, he needs to MAKE them stop tormenting the poor dog.  I always figured that was just common sense. >it’s stupid things like that where we >can’t agree……or for example..jumping on the cofee table…or at the >kitchen table…

The standard line around our home is, "If you’ve not got enough money in your savings account to replace it, then you’d best not be doing things that might break it."  That seems to have worked for everything except the occasional dropping onto the couch.  And they’re even getting better about that. >and they’ve told my mother to shut up when she asks them >to please sit down at the table…to me that is blatant disrespect…

I agree.  That is just flat out of line. >and i not only fault them for it but my husband as well…..

Actually, it’s primarily the responsibility of your husband and their BM.  They are the responsible adults the children have been looking to for guidance in what they may and may not do, how to act towards others, what is expected from them, and what is off-limits. Now, here’s something I’ve learned the hard way.  STOP FAULT-FINDING!! That’s why I replaced "fault" with "responsibility" above.  Don’t use words with majorly negative connotations.  If you want to find resolution to the difficulties, it’s much easier if you keep a POSITIVE eye on finding solutions, rather than a NEGATIVE eye on placing blame. At least that’s the way it works around here. >i am going to talk to him tonite…i’ve been writing down ‘notes’ so that i remember >everything i want to discuss with him…i tend to get upset and forget >important facts when i need to keep things in order…

That’s excellent technique.  I have to do that sometimes, too.  Of course, a lot of times I write things out here or on paper to get my own thoughts and feelings sorted out before I ever discuss it with Chewy.  It helps me put things in a better perspective, to be less emotional and more thoughtful. >i want to discuss my role with them..he says he wants me to >flat out just act like a parent..however he contradicts himself >when it really comes down to it….

Actually, that’s pretty normal.  There’s the "pie in the sky" concept we all have of The Brady Bunch.  We want things to work just like on the TV show.  But the reality of making things work that way wasn’t ever addressed on the show.  There’s so MUCH work that goes into parenting.  Sometimes it takes a lot of work for one parent (or step-parent) to get the other parent(s) to see how much work is involved. >i want to discuss with him if it would be best if he is the only one >to discipline them….so that BM doesnt fly off the handle..

Heh.  Nice abdication.  ;-)   Actually, that’s not a bad proposal to make.  I know that I’d *much* prefer it if YS’s BM didn’t have a hand in his discipline, but that’s because her "discipline" is harmful to him, sometimes physically, usually emotionally.  If she were using approaches that weren’t causing problems, approaches that were healthy, I’d have absolutely no problem with supporting it.  But that’s me. When you’re discussing discipline, don’t forget that if the decision is made for him to be the sole disciplinarian, you’re going to have to work out something for the times he’s not around and the kids do things they shouldn’t.  "Wait until your father gets home," is NOT effective.  Not by a long shot. List out each of the problems you’re having, with plenty of blank space under each for later brainstorming for solutions. Prioritize your list, with the things you just CANNOT stand to live with being the highest priority, the ones that really bug you to kingdom come and back getting next priority, the ones that are bothersome but you can handle for a little while, the ones that are just irksome, etc. My advice is to do that list BEFORE you talk to your husband.  That way, you have a clear idea what you can live with and what you can’t. You’ll know your personal "deal breakers." You have to  know yourself before you can help the situation.  That *does* include looking at how you may be contributing to the situation as it stands, then changing your contributions to something that is healthier all the way around. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:22:16 +0000 (UTC), vjr…@xcski.com (Vicki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Robinson) wrote: >In a previous article, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> said: <snipped> >>i am going to talk >>to him tonite…i’ve been writing down ‘notes’ so that i remember >>everything i want to discuss with him…i tend to get upset and forget >>important facts when i need to keep things in order….i want to discuss >>my role with them..he says he wants me to flat out just act like a >>parent.. >I don’t know the man, but this translates to me as "Handle it, and >leave me alone.  I don’t want to be bothered."  This, if it’s true, is >a huge problem, but it’s a problem between you and him.  It doesn’t >involve the kids, except as a symptom.  Keep the discussion on the >fact that you and he need to solve this.  don’t let him sidetrack you >with "You just hate my kids."  If he pulls out something like that, >just say "That’s not the issue.  The issue is how you and I are going >to support each other in raising your kids."  Once, in a discussion >with my ex, I kept track of how many times I had to pull him off of >defensive digressions back to the point.  Seventeen, ladies and >gentlemen, one after the other.

Don’t you just love when they do that?  What’s even more fun is when the kids do that and the other parent follows them down that road. OI! Vicki’s right.  When he starts feeling defensive, he’s going to try to derail the discussion.  Plain, old-fashioned human nature.  GENTLY (or at least as gently as you can manage) keep the attention focused on the topic at hand. <snipped> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>set limits…i.e…no jumping on the furniture…no tormenting the >>pets…no telling adults to shut up…and a HUGE one for me is i want to >>discuss the fact that there is a jealousy issue…the little one has >>issues…whenever he sees my husband and i together he throws fits or >>climbs in between us and says ‘dont talk to her’…i want to discuss this >>and make it known that is not acceptable….i feel like if it is allowed >>to go on it will only get worse…. >I disagree strongly.  He’s a little kid whose world is turning upside >down.  He needs hugs and squeezes and lots and lots of reassurance >that he’s not losing his dad to you.  Yes, *you* know that’s not the >case, but he doesn’t.  The worst thing you can do is forbid him to ask >for reassurance, and that’s all he’s doing.  You’re an adult, you can >wait for attention after the kids are in bed or after they’ve gone >back to biomom.  If he climbs between you, make room and say "Come on >up here, Sport.  What did you think of that thunderstorm last night?" >His dad should be giving them whatever affection he can, in front of >you, and you should be supporting that with a glad heart. >I note that one of the big problems here is discipline.  Do the kids >ever get good attention from either of you?  One of the sad facts of >life for some kids is that they only get attention when they’re being >"bad."  The adults in their lives want them to go out and play, watch >TV, go to their rooms… do anything but bother them.  When the kids >start jumping on the coffeetable, does one of you say "Let’s go >play soccer in the back yard"?  "Let’s bake a cake for dinner."  Let’s >sort out that sock drawer."  (And that should be Dad a whole lotta the >time, but it’s good for you to do some fun things with them too.) Let >them help you make dinner, set the table, pour the milk.  Find >*something* that you can say "Hey, good job!" about.

Yep.  Vicki’s right. Did you know that they’ve done research to find out how many positives it takes to outweigh negatives?  It takes TEN (count them – 10!!) positive interactions just to balance out ONE negative interaction. This means that you need MORE THAN 10 positive interactions for EACH negative interaction just to start making headway. Do you have any idea how mind-boggling that was to me when I first started figuring on that?  My kids have all had WAY too many negative interactions with various people in their lives.  Three of them had a huge number of negative interactions before I even knew them. Think about the huge task of balancing out all those negative interactions.  Now think about how much larger the task becomes each time you add ANOTHER negative interaction. That was enough for me to start insisting on lots and lots and lots of positive interactions.  You’ve got to have them, even if you have to create situations that will allow you to praise a child.  "Little Johnny, I SOOOOOO appreciate how you <fill in the blank>."  It’s hard, but it CAN be done. >(Discipline is guidance, not punishment.  Keep that in mind.  Some men >don’t realize that, they think discipline means yelling.)  

Yep.  Would you want someone yelling at *your* kids?  I know it gets on my last nerve if someone starts yelling at mine.  But that’s what a lot of people (not just men) think of when you say "discipline."  But discipline can be far gentler. >Play with >the kids, integrate them into your family routine.  And when they say >"My mom says…", no matter how outrageous, just say "Oh, yeah?  Hm. >Now, did you want jelly on the peanut butter, or just plain?"

Or something like what I said when YD came home from a visit with her BM, "I understand your mother is concerned.  I’m taking care of her babies for her most of the year.  She’s never met me and doesn’t know how I’m taking care of you.  So of course she worries."  That diffused that particular situation.  Then we were able to address how YD felt about it and help her find some resolution of her own. Of course, the entire time, what I was *thinking* in no way whatsoever matched the words and tone coming out of my mouth.  You’ve got to play "customer support" sometimes. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

In a previous article, "badgirl" <chgobadg…@comcast.net> said: >Let me just add that in a situation where there is such animosity coming >from the BM it might be a good idea to keep a daily journal of every days >events. Especially if the kids get into trouble for something you want to >write down what happened and what the consequences were for them so there >won’t be and confusion later. If the kids are old enough have them write >their names at the bottom of each page at the end of each day so if they go >back and try to stretch the story later you can show whomever it’s important >to show later what was really there.

I think that making kids document their misbehavior is a sure-fire recipe for resentment and even more bad feeling.  One of the big problems in the OP’s life is that the biomom is putting the kids in the middle.  The answer is not to squeeze them from the other side so the pressure on them is unbearable. The answer is to take the pressure off.  Let Dad do the disciplining according to house rules that are clearly stated.  (And no one needs a 200 page, 7-point handbook, Kitten does very will with two rules, and two only.)  If Dad refuses to do the disciplining, then that’s a marital problem, not a step problem, and has to be addressed with him, not with the kids. OP, how old are these kids? Vicki — Just to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry ’bout rich and skinny ’til I wound up poor and fat.                                  -Delbert McClinton

Response:

thanks for the advise….i kinda agree that the parents should be the one to set the limits…..these are kids that are 6 years old and 9 years old….. there are just things that no matter how i try to look at it different i have a problem with…for example..i have a little dog that is terrified of them…and they torment him..chase him…shake things in his face…and when he snaps at them my husband gets mad at the dog….*I* feel like they have been told time and again to leave the dog alone and that the dog shouldnt be punished….it’s stupid things like that where we can’t agree……or for example..jumping on the cofee table…or at the kitchen table…and they’ve told my mother to shut up when she asks them to please sit down at the table…to me that is blatant disrespect…and i not only fault them for it but my husband as well…..i am going to talk to him tonite…i’ve been writing down ‘notes’ so that i remember everything i want to discuss with him…i tend to get upset and forget important facts when i need to keep things in order….i want to discuss my role with them..he says he wants me to flat out just act like a parent..however he contradicts himself when it really comes down to it….i want to discuss with him if it would be best if he is the only one to discipline them….so that BM doesnt fly off the handle….i want to set limits…i.e…no jumping on the furniture…no tormenting the pets…no telling adults to shut up…and a HUGE one for me is i want to discuss the fact that there is a jealousy issue…the little one has issues…whenever he sees my husband and i together he throws fits or climbs in between us and says ‘dont talk to her’…i want to discuss this and make it known that is not acceptable….i feel like if it is allowed to go on it will only get worse….i am all for the unified front issue….that is why i want to discuss this with hubby and then with the boys. i have gone to see a family therapist to ask for advise…dont ask me why..i just felt maybe some professional advice could come in handy too…and then i could use what worked etc….and she has said that perhaps the best family plan for us is the meeting, the boundaries, and letting them know that i am not replacing their mother, however i am there and there is to be respect and that if they disobey the father will take care of it…..i’m hoping that y’all here have had experience or opinions or advice..i’m like an addict here now..i read and read and read…..thank you in advance

Response:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:23:04 +0000 (UTC), vjr…@xcski.com (Vicki Robinson) wrote: >OP, how old are these kids?

That’s what I was wondering.  The best ways to deal with the issues are going to depend on the ages of the children. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->more about my situation…let me see….ok…met my husband at work…we >became amazing friends….i knew he had an ex that was manipulating him >terribly…..and two kids….we moved in together, got married in >february….well….she’s now trying to claim ‘common law’ marriage to him >and asking for alimony..which doesnt fly very often in TX….we have CS >set…and finally visitation…it used to be a last minute thing whenever >she decided she would call and we’d rush over to get the boys and then >three hours later she would flip out and make us bring them home…she >calls a LOT…hangs up a lot but we have caller id so it just makes me >laugh when that happens…we have a lawyer now…she tried to have >visitation say that he couldnt have the kids if i was there and that if >they didnt do it she wouldnt let the kids go..but her lawyer told her ‘you >dont know the legal ramifications of what you are saying. and you watch >too many tv movies’….so that didn’t happen….thursday is the first time >we go to get them since visitation was set…and we have them for the >entire month of july….the lawyer told us to call sheriff if she gives a >hard time because it is ‘interfering with child custody’…i’m worried she >is going to pull something because that is how she is….the kids…lets >get to the kids…i have NO clue how to deal with them. previously i didnt >tell them anything…nothing…i was quiet and spoke to them and when they >did things i didnt like i would tell my husband…but i think that i would >like it if we sat down with them and told them that we are married, and >that they have two families…and that there are rules and that they need >to mind their manners….i dont know if that is right??? i am a step >child..my dad never once hesitated to do or say anything to us..and i >consider HIM to be my father……so i thought this would be kinda >easier…that they wouldnt see me as the enemy…but they do…and oh how >they dislike me….i have made my bedroom off limits….because the time >that they spent the nite they kept running into our room for playtime at 3 >in the morning…..does anyone have any suggestions?? i need to get my >mind straight on what is a good idea..i have one more day before i am in >the mix of it…i want to be a good parent to them….and not have them >hate me…i realize it will take time…is there anything i can do? what >about discipline? should it be from husband only? any help is appreciated.

Different families handle the discipline differently.  The major thing is that you and your husband are on the same page about it, not that you do what worked for anyone else.  In this group, there are stepparents who totally share the parenting responsibilities and stepparents who have nothing to do with the parenting responsibilities.  Both situations can "work"; the critical factor is that the married couple agrees with the decision, and backs each other up.   So, the first step is for you and your husband to hammer out an agreement about what you expect from each other.  Are you going to function as a parent?  If not, is he going to take off work during the time they are there to do so?  If you are, then you have to do a crash course in "Limits 101:  Things That We Agree Will be Tolerated and Will Not Be Tolerated, with Consequences."  You might want to actually write them down, to avoid any confusion.  Even if you are not going to function as a parent, the two of you need to sit down and talk about what you are willing to live with and what you are not, as an adult living in the house. Once the kids are there, I think a family meeting is a wonderful idea. Together the two of you lay out what it is that you have decided.  I will add here that some here might say that a family meeting with *all* of you deciding what the family constellation will look like and function like would be a good idea, but I’m pretty old-fashioned in this regard — I think that the parents decide this, not the kids.  The kids just have to learn to cope with what is there.  Yes, given what you’ve said about their previous behavior, and what they are likely to have heard at home, expect some resistance.  But, if you and your husband present a united front, chances are good that things will improve over time.  If, on the other hand, your husband isn’t backing you up (which I’d say is a decent possibility, given that he’s been reluctant to discipline in the past) then you have a marital problem to work on. Best of luck to you.  Hope this helps. Sheila

Response:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:40:28 -0400, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> wrote: <snipped> >i realize it will take time…is there anything i can do? what >about discipline? should it be from husband only? any help is appreciated.

First, what are you willing to live with?  And I mean TRULY willing to live with.  There are some step-parents who are willing to live with WAY more than I am.   A part of that depends on how much time you have with the kids.  My husband and I each have sole custody of our children from our previous marriages, so we had to find a way to balance things across the board. I wasn’t going to live with his kids getting away with things that I’d never dream of letting mine get away with, and vice versa.  It was things clear down to "Yes, Ma’am," "Yes, Sir," "No, Ma’am," and "No, Sir."  I felt it was inappropriate *not* to use them.  He felt it was inappropriate *to* use them. You’ve got to sit down and determine what is important to each of you. Then you have to come up with a plan of action.  And you have to remember to be FLEXIBLE with each other – that’s your husband and you. Where are you in TX?  Chewy and I just finished some really good Bible-based parenting courses targeted specifically for foster/adopt families, but there was a lot of material included that works well for step-type blended families, too.   If you’re in the same area we are, you might be able to talk with the foster/adopt agency we’re working with to see if they have anything for step-parenting.  I know they are planning on adding workshops that target specific topics, such as ADHD, anger management, organization, etc. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

In a previous article, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> said: >to set the limits…..these are kids that are 6 years old and 9 years >old…..

OK, six and nine.  They’re still very self-involved (and this is appropriate for their ages) and you cannot expect them to just swallow this huge change in their lives, especially with biomom stirring things up at her end.  It’ll take 5 to 7 years.  (Yes.  Maybe less, maybe more, but there *is no quick fix*.) >there are just things that no matter how i try to look at it >different i have a problem with…for example..i have a little dog that is >terrified of them…and they torment him..chase him…shake things in his >face…and when he snaps at them my husband gets mad at the dog….*I* >feel like they have been told time and again to leave the dog alone and >that the dog shouldnt be punished….

Keep the dog with you, on leash if you have to.  Your husband *should* be addressing this, but he’s not, and you can’t take a chance on the dog’s well-being or the kids’ getting bitten.  Keep him by your side at all times. >it’s stupid things like that where we >can’t agree……or for example..jumping on the cofee table…or at the >kitchen table…and they’ve told my mother to shut up when she asks them >to please sit down at the table…to me that is blatant disrespect…and i >not only fault them for it but my husband as well…..

That would chap my cheeks too. >i am going to talk >to him tonite…i’ve been writing down ‘notes’ so that i remember >everything i want to discuss with him…i tend to get upset and forget >important facts when i need to keep things in order….i want to discuss >my role with them..he says he wants me to flat out just act like a >parent..

I don’t know the man, but this translates to me as "Handle it, and leave me alone.  I don’t want to be bothered."  This, if it’s true, is a huge problem, but it’s a problem between you and him.  It doesn’t involve the kids, except as a symptom.  Keep the discussion on the fact that you and he need to solve this.  don’t let him sidetrack you with "You just hate my kids."  If he pulls out something like that, just say "That’s not the issue.  The issue is how you and I are going to support each other in raising your kids."  Once, in a discussion with my ex, I kept track of how many times I had to pull him off of defensive digressions back to the point.  Seventeen, ladies and gentlemen, one after the other. >however he contradicts himself when it really comes down to >it….i want to discuss with him if it would be best if he is the only one >to discipline them….so that BM doesnt fly off the handle….i want to

Nope.  You cannot control biomom, no matter what you do.  Leave her out of your discussion totally.  If she’s determined to fly off the handle, she will.  You can’t possibly shortcircuit all of the possible hot buttons.  Don’t even try.  Do what’s right for your family. >set limits…i.e…no jumping on the furniture…no tormenting the >pets…no telling adults to shut up…and a HUGE one for me is i want to >discuss the fact that there is a jealousy issue…the little one has >issues…whenever he sees my husband and i together he throws fits or >climbs in between us and says ‘dont talk to her’…i want to discuss this >and make it known that is not acceptable….i feel like if it is allowed >to go on it will only get worse….

I disagree strongly.  He’s a little kid whose world is turning upside down.  He needs hugs and squeezes and lots and lots of reassurance that he’s not losing his dad to you.  Yes, *you* know that’s not the case, but he doesn’t.  The worst thing you can do is forbid him to ask for reassurance, and that’s all he’s doing.  You’re an adult, you can wait for attention after the kids are in bed or after they’ve gone back to biomom.  If he climbs between you, make room and say "Come on up here, Sport.  What did you think of that thunderstorm last night?" His dad should be giving them whatever affection he can, in front of you, and you should be supporting that with a glad heart. I note that one of the big problems here is discipline.  Do the kids ever get good attention from either of you?  One of the sad facts of life for some kids is that they only get attention when they’re being "bad."  The adults in their lives want them to go out and play, watch TV, go to their rooms… do anything but bother them.  When the kids start jumping on the coffeetable, does one of you say "Let’s go play soccer in the back yard"?  "Let’s bake a cake for dinner."  Let’s sort out that sock drawer."  (And that should be Dad a whole lotta the time, but it’s good for you to do some fun things with them too.) Let them help you make dinner, set the table, pour the milk.  Find *something* that you can say "Hey, good job!" about. >i am all for the unified front >issue….that is why i want to discuss this with hubby and then with the >boys. i have gone to see a family therapist to ask for advise…dont ask >me why..i just felt maybe some professional advice could come in handy >too…and then i could use what worked etc….and she has said that >perhaps the best family plan for us is the meeting, the boundaries, and >letting them know that i am not replacing their mother, however i am there >and there is to be respect and that if they disobey the father will take >care of it…..i’m hoping that y’all here have had experience or opinions >or advice..i’m like an addict here now..i read and read and read…..thank >you in advance

She gave you good advice.  So are we, and it’s all pretty much pointing in the right direction.  Your husband needs to be the parent. You both need to stop worrying about biomom’s reactions to things. You need to not put extra pressure on the kids, but guide them. (Discipline is guidance, not punishment.  Keep that in mind.  Some men don’t realize that, they think discipline means yelling.)  Play with the kids, integrate them into your family routine.  And when they say "My mom says…", no matter how outrageous, just say "Oh, yeah?  Hm. Now, did you want jelly on the peanut butter, or just plain?" Vicki — Just to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry ’bout rich and skinny ’til I wound up poor and fat.                                  -Delbert McClinton

Response:

"WhansaMi" <whans…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20040629105501.19122.00000821@mb-m06.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >more about my situation…let me see….ok…met my husband at work…we > >became amazing friends….i knew he had an ex that was manipulating him > >terribly…..and two kids….we moved in together, got married in > >february….well….she’s now trying to claim ‘common law’ marriage to him > >and asking for alimony..which doesnt fly very often in TX….we have CS > >set…and finally visitation…it used to be a last minute thing whenever > >she decided she would call and we’d rush over to get the boys and then > >three hours later she would flip out and make us bring them home…she > >calls a LOT…hangs up a lot but we have caller id so it just makes me > >laugh when that happens…we have a lawyer now…she tried to have > >visitation say that he couldnt have the kids if i was there and that if > >they didnt do it she wouldnt let the kids go..but her lawyer told her ‘you > >dont know the legal ramifications of what you are saying. and you watch > >too many tv movies’….so that didn’t happen….thursday is the first time > >we go to get them since visitation was set…and we have them for the > >entire month of july….the lawyer told us to call sheriff if she gives a > >hard time because it is ‘interfering with child custody’…i’m worried she > >is going to pull something because that is how she is….the kids…lets > >get to the kids…i have NO clue how to deal with them. previously i didnt > >tell them anything…nothing…i was quiet and spoke to them and when they > >did things i didnt like i would tell my husband…but i think that i would > >like it if we sat down with them and told them that we are married, and > >that they have two families…and that there are rules and that they need > >to mind their manners….i dont know if that is right??? i am a step > >child..my dad never once hesitated to do or say anything to us..and i > >consider HIM to be my father……so i thought this would be kinda > >easier…that they wouldnt see me as the enemy…but they do…and oh how > >they dislike me….i have made my bedroom off limits….because the time > >that they spent the nite they kept running into our room for playtime at 3 > >in the morning…..does anyone have any suggestions?? i need to get my > >mind straight on what is a good idea..i have one more day before i am in > >the mix of it…i want to be a good parent to them….and not have them > >hate me…i realize it will take time…is there anything i can do? what > >about discipline? should it be from husband only? any help is appreciated. > Different families handle the discipline differently.  The major thing is that > you and your husband are on the same page about it, not that you do what worked > for anyone else.  In this group, there are stepparents who totally share the > parenting responsibilities and stepparents who have nothing to do with the > parenting responsibilities.  Both situations can "work"; the critical factor is > that the married couple agrees with the decision, and backs each other up. > So, the first step is for you and your husband to hammer out an agreement about > what you expect from each other.  Are you going to function as a parent? If > not, is he going to take off work during the time they are there to do so? If > you are, then you have to do a crash course in "Limits 101:  Things That We > Agree Will be Tolerated and Will Not Be Tolerated, with Consequences." You > might want to actually write them down, to avoid any confusion.  Even if you > are not going to function as a parent, the two of you need to sit down and talk > about what you are willing to live with and what you are not, as an adult > living in the house. > Once the kids are there, I think a family meeting is a wonderful idea. > Together the two of you lay out what it is that you have decided.  I will add > here that some here might say that a family meeting with *all* of you deciding > what the family constellation will look like and function like would be a good > idea, but I’m pretty old-fashioned in this regard — I think that the parents > decide this, not the kids.  The kids just have to learn to cope with what is > there.  Yes, given what you’ve said about their previous behavior, and what > they are likely to have heard at home, expect some resistance.  But, if you and > your husband present a united front, chances are good that things will improve > over time.  If, on the other hand, your husband isn’t backing you up (which I’d > say is a decent possibility, given that he’s been reluctant to discipline in > the past) then you have a marital problem to work on. > Best of luck to you.  Hope this helps. > Sheila

Let me just add that in a situation where there is such animosity coming from the BM it might be a good idea to keep a daily journal of every days events. Especially if the kids get into trouble for something you want to write down what happened and what the consequences were for them so there won’t be and confusion later. If the kids are old enough have them write their names at the bottom of each page at the end of each day so if they go back and try to stretch the story later you can show whomever it’s important to show later what was really there. Jen

Response:

In a previous article, "fate1003" <djfate1003@private> said: >Hi…I’m new….and feeling like a total idiot….i love my husband very

Hi, and welcome. I see you’re coming to alt.support.step-parents through talkaboutparenting.  This isn’t a bad thing, but you have to be aware that this is not a private board where everyone is registered and known.  This is a Usenet newsgroup that is open to anyone with a computer, an internet connection and a newsreader, and it is being archived at groups.google.com which anyone can look up anytime they want.  Your email address is hidden on talkabout, but it’s not on Usenet!  We can all see it, and so can the spam harvester robots.  The talkabout people are just providing a web interface.  And advertising.  If you want to make sure that google doesn’t archive your posts you have to put, as the **very first line of every post** X-no-archive: yes People who quote you, however, may be archived, and your words will live forever. However, if this is not a concern for you, you’ll find this a pretty good tough-love group.  We generally don’t waste a lot of time patting people’s shoulders and murmuring "There there, Dear".  The response is more likely to be "That’s really rough, how are you making it worse, and what are your choices for making it better?"  If what you’re looking for is practical advice from a lot of people (mostly women) who’ve been there and done that, this is the place to be.  We are stepmoms and biomoms, custodial and non-custodial.   Sometimes we are the step-parents, sometimes it’s our husbands who are steps to our biokids.  Sometimes its our exes who have repartnered, and it’s our kids who are trying to adjust to a step in their lives. Tell us more about your situation. Vicki — Just to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry ’bout rich and skinny ’til I wound up poor and fat.                                  -Delbert McClinton

Response:

Hi…I’m new….and feeling like a total idiot….i love my husband very much..and when we got together i truly thought this would be easier…boy was i wrong….he has 2 kids with his ex…they were never married….and in the past 6 months she’s only let them see him three times…all three of those times were not so great…the kids tell me ‘my mom hates you’ or ‘dont talk to me’ or tell my husband ‘dont talk to her’ or they always come push me away when he’s with me…..i dont know how to take this??? and then they just act up..throw things in the house..scream and yell and run….and my husband does nothing. he doesnt want to be ‘mean’ because he doestn get to see them that often….so for the most part when they are over i hide in my bedroom. i dont come out. well..now we’ve gone to court..and he has joint custody…and for the entire month of july we have them with us 24/7….i do NOT know what to do …i’m TERRIFIED….i feel a fool…a grown woman who is terrified of two little boys….. i dont know what to do…this is for an entire month..when i talk to my husband he says it will be fine…but i have been the one that the BM targets, she calls screaming at me…hangs up non stop…tells the kids only who knows what…..and i dont even think the kids GET IT that he and i are together….can anyone help me? am i losing it???

Response:

Question:

Its been a week with Mathew, Bruiser’s little kitten friend under house arrest and Maya and me are offically tired of it.  I don’t think we fully appreciated him wearing Bruiser out.  In the last two days he has gotten really bad.  Way too much energy.  He has been chasing Maya around wanting to rough house and Maya is expressively demonstrating her refusal.  Bruiser has never really grasped the concept that anyone would not be delighted to drop everything at his slightest whim including Maya and she has really tried to get the idea across  At least this morning he played with the toys on the floor for a couple of hours.  He is also feeling lonely so he has spent more time cuddling with me and demanding skritches.  I would guess he’s at least 13 pounds now and still all kitten.  A 13 lb kitten is… well its… its a hell of a lot of kitten is what it is.  Mathew we need you.

Response:

Its been a week with Mathew, Bruiser’s little kitten friend under house arrest and Maya and me are offically tired of it.  I don’t think we fully appreciated him wearing Bruiser out.  In the last two days he has gotten really bad.  Way too much energy.  He has been chasing Maya around wanting to rough house and Maya is expressively demonstrating her refusal.  Bruiser has never really grasped the concept that anyone would not be delighted to drop everything at his slightest whim including Maya and she has really tried to get the idea across  At least this morning he played with the toys on the floor for a couple of hours.  He is also feeling lonely so he has spent more time cuddling with me and demanding skritches.  I would guess he’s at least 13 pounds now and still all kitten.  A 13 lb kitten is… well its… its a hell of a lot of kitten is what it is.  Mathew we need you.

Allright. You either need to go take Mathew from his folks and GET him fixed so he can come and play. Offer to buy him. Or adopt another kitten for Bruiser. Karen

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its been a week with Mathew, Bruiser’s little kitten friend under house arrest and Maya and me are offically tired of it.  I don’t think we fully appreciated him wearing Bruiser out.  In the last two days he has gotten really bad.  Way too much energy.  He has been chasing Maya around wanting to rough house and Maya is expressively demonstrating her refusal.  Bruiser has never really grasped the concept that anyone would not be delighted to drop everything at his slightest whim including Maya and she has really tried to get the idea across  At least this morning he played with the toys on the floor for a couple of hours.  He is also feeling lonely so he has spent more time cuddling with me and demanding skritches.  I would guess he’s at least 13 pounds now and still all kitten.  A 13 lb kitten is… well its… its a hell of a lot of kitten is what it is.  Mathew we need you. Allright. You either need to go take Mathew from his folks and GET him fixed so he can come and play. Offer to buy him. Or adopt another kitten for Bruiser.

He can’t get fixed until the two weeks are up.  I would hazard to guess that after two weeks with Mathew locked in the condo who is as active as Bruiser, used to being able to run the streets at will and with raging adolescent hormones running through him they are anxious to get the evil deed done even if he is smaller than Bruiser.  

Response:

Loved the story, John! Thanks. Best wishes, — Polonca & Soncek

<snip Bruiser has never really grasped the concept that anyone would – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – not be delighted to drop everything at his slightest whim including Maya and she has really tried to get the idea across  At least this morning he played with the toys on the floor for a couple of hours.  He is also feeling lonely so he has spent more time cuddling with me and demanding skritches.  I would guess he’s at least 13 pounds now and still all kitten.  A 13 lb kitten is… well its… its a hell of a lot of kitten is what it is.  Mathew we need you.

Response:

Last night for no aparant reason he leaped from the cat tree up on top of the valence that covers the top of vertical blinds for the patio door.   Its mostly foam and cloth with little support since it is just for show..  It was buckling in a couple of places and of course he dug in with all claws when I pulled him off it.  I can’t believe it did not come down. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Loved the story, John! Thanks. Best wishes,

Response:

Its been a week with Mathew, Bruiser’s little kitten friend under house arrest and Maya and me are offically tired of it.  I don’t think we fully appreciated him wearing Bruiser out.  In the last two days he has gotten really bad.  Way too much energy.  He has been chasing Maya around wanting to rough house and Maya is expressively demonstrating her refusal.  Bruiser has never really grasped the concept that anyone would not be delighted to drop everything at his slightest whim including Maya and she has really tried to get the idea across  At least this morning he played with the toys on the floor for a couple of hours.  He is also feeling lonely so he has spent more time cuddling with me and demanding skritches.  I would guess he’s at least 13 pounds now and still all kitten.  A 13 lb kitten is… well its… its a hell of a lot of kitten is what it is.  Mathew we need you.

Does Mathew have an older brother suitable for Dakota? Apache would appreciate that. — Jette Goldie Apache and Dakota http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kitties.html

Response:

 I would guess he’s at least 13 pounds now and still all kitten.  A 13 lb kitten is… well its… its a hell of a lot of kitten is

what it is.  Mathew we need you. Poor Bruiser & John Suz  Macmoosette Thank Heavens There’s Only One =^..^=   =^..^=   =^..^=   =^..^=  =^..^=  =^..^= I’ve learned to not sweat the petty things, and not pet the sweaty things.

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Question:

Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx

Awwww, that’s so sweet!  I wish I could have seen my Persia (foundling) when she was a tiny baby!  Good luck with the tiny kitty! Jill

Response:

Awwww, that’s so sweet!  I wish I could have seen my Persia (foundling) when she was a tiny baby!  Good luck with the tiny kitty! Jill

Thanks Jill, She is so tiny… like she would easily fit in the palm of my hand (with room to move). Skye…xxx

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Hi Judith, Me too…. but unfortunately my friend is a 2 hour drive away… and my hubby and I are both working.. I can’t just up and leave my job… and our weekends are full up looking after our "menagerie" here at home. Skye…xxx

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx How wonderful!!!! I would want to go more than every couple of weeks though. Judith — Judith Latham Stourbridge, West Midlands. UK. http://www.mightyoak.org.uk/

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Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time.

Aww. They are so helpless at that age. And they look like moles until their ears pop up. ;o) — Marina

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Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time.

I can just imagine the tiny sweet furballs! Couldn’t you make some photos next time? Ani

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Skye, how exciting for you. We are sure your little furbaby will become a gorgeous kitty. Keep us updated, and we can hardly wait to see pics. Jazz & his mama — Irulan from the stars we came to the stars we return from now until the end of time

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx

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what kind of tail does she have? did the mom cat mate with another manx? I love getting a new litter and checking to see what sort of tails we get <g Patty

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How sweet!  You should start a photo record of your kitten now. It will be hard to resist the urge to take her home too young. But her present Mom really is best for her for quite a while. — Jo Firey "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I

desperately wanted to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx

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| I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend | (whose baby had babies last week) I have to ask: was your friend’s cat a heavily pregnant stray taken in recently?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx

That sounds simply wonderful! The wait until your new kitten can come home with you must be agonizing! And talk about your major kitten fever attacks! I confess some envy on my part. Life without cats would be only marginally worth living. TC, and the unmercifully, relentlessly, sweet calico kitty, Kenzie.

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I know exactly how you feel  I was a victim of kitten fever for months waiting for Bonnie and Clyde.  Hope you get plenty of photos to share with us. Bev   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx That sounds simply wonderful! The wait until your new kitten can come home with you must be agonizing! And talk about your major kitten fever attacks! I confess some envy on my part. Life without cats would be only marginally worth living. TC, and the unmercifully, relentlessly, sweet calico kitty, Kenzie.

– The email of the species is more deadly than the mail.

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Awwww, that’s so sweet!  I wish I could have seen my Persia (foundling) when she was a tiny baby!  Good luck with the tiny kitty! Jill Thanks Jill, She is so tiny… like she would easily fit in the palm of my hand (with room to move). Skye…xxx

When I got my dog, Sampson, he fit in the palm of my hand.  He never got over 12 lbs. but he thought he was a doberman or something.  When he was about 6 months old he broke his tether and chased after a german shepherd! He was so protective of me.  I had that dog for nearly 18 years and was devastated when he died. Persia came to me as a grown cat, about 3 years old.  She won my heart in a day.  Now I don’t know what I’d do without her.  I sure wish I’d seen her as a tiny grey kitten.  I’m sure she was as adorable then as she is now. Jill

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Hi Patty, This one is not a manx…. i’m not sure what the dad was either…. mum is a tortoise-shell like colouring (I’m not good with types/breeds sorry …) I think it’s weird how she is the only caramel one in the litter… the others are quite dark. luv Skye..xxx

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I have to ask: was your friend’s cat a heavily pregnant stray taken in recently?

No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha is now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? Skye.

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I’m hoping to get down to see her again in a week or so… and will definately be taking the digi-cam with me….. (I meant to take it this last trip, but it wasn’t charged up – bugger!!) Don’t worry, You’ll all get to see some "happy-snaps" real soon . luv Skye…xxx

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I’m glad you had such an amazing day. Thank you for sharing it with us. Best wishes, — Polonca & Soncek

Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time.

<snip

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, hello, I just have to tell you all that last night I went to visit my friend (whose baby had babies last week)….I saw my new little girl for the first time. I realise this probably wouldn’t be anything new to most of you… but I have NEVER seen kitty-cats so small!!  They are just over a week old… I was so impressed by Sasha (the mother cat).. she handled them all so beautifully.  The way she communicated with them… it was amazing to witness.  Four tiny little bundles suckling… and Sasha patiently lay there…. she loved being petted while her lil ones were feeding.  I gave her a scratch under her chin, and she raised her front paw and gently placed it over my arm and pulled me in a little closer.  I desperately wanted to pick up the kittens and have a cuddle… but they were so tiny, I didn’t want to hurt them, so I just sat and watched them for ages. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen (in real life anyways). My little girl is the prettiest caramel colour… although, she may change colour I’m told as she grows older. I came home and told my husband that we simply have to go and visit them every couple of weeks so we can watch her grow, until she is old enough to come home with us!! Oh… I’m on cloud nine and thought you would like to hear about my wonderful visit. Wishing you all the best.. purrs from Elvis too … Luv Skye…xxx   We saw Dana when she was just hours old …. didn’t even look like a

cat – more like a mouse!!  So tiny!!  Because Dana’s mom lives across the street from us, we were able to see her daily …. although at the time, we hadn’t picked out which kitty we would take.  I remember going for tea & having all these little critters climbing all over me … it was so hard to choose!!  We brought Dana over to our house for a short visit when she was 4 wks old, to meet Quincy – who was not impressed!  Now, Dana is a big girl – a tuxedo cat & oh, so cute!! (we know who the dad is!!) Have fun!! Liane

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| I have to ask: was your friend’s cat a heavily pregnant stray taken in | recently? | | No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha is | now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? Maybe a picture will save a thousand words:  http://tinyurl.com/7myc

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Was this necessary? I come to this newsgroup to escape from the realities of having too many unwanted kittens born in the world. Yes, I know it happens. But this newsgroup is a refuge for me. Call me naive, but I think some warning would have been appropriate! — Irulan from the stars we came to the stars we return from now until the end of time

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I have to ask: was your friend’s cat a heavily pregnant stray taken in | recently? | | No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha is | now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? Maybe a picture will save a thousand words:  http://tinyurl.com/7myc

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And I think the people here are not exactly the kind of people that have to be told with that kind of photo’s what they’re doing wrong. This should be seen by all those that are not so concerned about their animals as we are. Nanny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was this necessary? I come to this newsgroup to escape from the realities of having too many unwanted kittens born in the world. Yes, I know it happens. But this newsgroup is a refuge for me. Call me naive, but I think some warning would have been appropriate! — Irulan from the stars we came to the stars we return from now until the end of time | I have to ask: was your friend’s cat a heavily pregnant stray taken in | recently? | | No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha is | now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? Maybe a picture will save a thousand words:  http://tinyurl.com/7myc

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|| No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha || is now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? | | Maybe a picture will save a thousand words: | |  http://tinyurl.com/7myc | | Was this necessary? To save a thousand words, I think so. | I come to this newsgroup to escape from the realities of having too | many unwanted kittens born in the world. Yes, I know it happens. But you’d prefer to turn away and wish that it didn’t exist, right?   Let’s not talk about two years of heats and the dangers of pyometra in the long term.  How about offering to take a kitten only on condition that the mother will be spayed?  There *are* ways to convey important messages to "friends".  Going gushy-gurgly enthusiastic about some kittens when other kittens are being put to sleep in shelters for lack of resources is, unfortunately, not one of them. — Netiquette Pointers:   http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post   http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials/tutorial_1999-12.shtml   http://www.expita.com/nomime.html

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If I’m not mistaken, I believe that their point may have been more in the ‘you’re preaching to the choir and we don’t need the pictures to convince us thank you very much’ direction.  Other than the individuals who are actively breeding their animals, the vast majority of us have had our cats spayed/neutered and encourage others to do so.  Personally, I acknowledge that there is a big problem of unwanted puppies and kittens.  However, I don’t have an activist personality.  If a friend or relative does mention wanting to adopt an animal I do strongly recommend having it "fixed" and I donate to local feral TNR programs, but otherwise I leave the activism to those who are better at it.  I applaud you for the efforts you have mentioned participating in.  But please, we prefer happier pictures here.  Or at least more warning of potentially disturbing material when posting a link.  Thanks!   – Denise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – || No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha || is now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? | | Maybe a picture will save a thousand words: | |  http://tinyurl.com/7myc | | Was this necessary? To save a thousand words, I think so. | I come to this newsgroup to escape from the realities of having too | many unwanted kittens born in the world. Yes, I know it happens. But you’d prefer to turn away and wish that it didn’t exist, right?   Let’s not talk about two years of heats and the dangers of pyometra in the long term.  How about offering to take a kitten only on condition that the mother will be spayed?  There *are* ways to convey important messages to "friends".  Going gushy-gurgly enthusiastic about some kittens when other kittens are being put to sleep in shelters for lack of resources is, unfortunately, not one of them.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – || No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha || is now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? | | Maybe a picture will save a thousand words: | |  http://tinyurl.com/7myc | | Was this necessary? To save a thousand words, I think so. | I come to this newsgroup to escape from the realities of having too | many unwanted kittens born in the world. Yes, I know it happens. But you’d prefer to turn away and wish that it didn’t exist, right? Let’s not talk about two years of heats and the dangers of pyometra in the long term.  How about offering to take a kitten only on condition that the mother will be spayed?  There *are* ways to convey important messages to "friends".  Going gushy-gurgly enthusiastic about some kittens when other kittens are being put to sleep in shelters for lack of resources is, unfortunately, not one of them.

You are a troll. Go away. You are now in my killfile. Even your email address is a fake. PLONK. — Irulan from the stars we came to the stars we return from now until the end of time

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How about a warning on pics like that, please? Stacey

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I have to ask: was your friend’s cat a heavily pregnant stray taken in | recently? | | No, my friend has had Sasha since she was maybe 5mths old…. Sasha is | now over 2 and a half yrs.  Why do you ask? Maybe a picture will save a thousand words:  http://tinyurl.com/7myc

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Question:

What a sweet story! Thank you, Maya (and John). Best wishes, — Polonca & Soncek

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My Story by Maya I was a poor little 9 month old Las Vegas cat and my humans were not treating me very well. <snip

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Hello Maya Sounds like you trained your human perfectly.  Mine aren’t bad either. The majority of my early years were spent producing kittens; litter after litter, and that can have a draining effect on a girl, you know. Then some other humans took me to a place they called a "sanctuary" and told the humans there that they were fed up with seeing me permanently pregnant or with kittens.  Could the sanctuary find me a nice home where I would be looked after properly? The humans at the sanctuary were very kind.  They made sure I was fed properly for the first time in ages, and stopped me getting all itchy and scratchy.  And I don’t know how it happened …. but I suddenly lost the urge to "socialise" with other cats, if you get my drift.  I guess it must have been the socialising that caused all the kittens, as I’ve not had any since. When my future humans came to the sanctuary, I gave a performance worthy of an Oscar.  While they were talking to the cat in the next cage, I turned on the cuteness tap full blast.  I purred, and batted the wire netting of my enclosure to tell them to look at me.  The other cat wasn’t very friendly anyhow. When the humans came to look at me, I was all over them like a rash, and they were suckered. They didn’t tell me about the other cat that lives here, Jasper.  He’s something of a bully, and thinks he rules the roost because he used to live here with his mother, and he’s been here longer than me.  Pah!  I may be a girlcat, but I’m tough.  I think he must be mellowing now, as sometimes he lets me eat from his food bowl without bopping me upside the head.   That aside, I definitely approve of this set-up. — Carrie

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My Story by Maya

Wow. Has it really been two years? Time flies. We need to see a new picture of Maya Karen

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My Story by Maya

Well, congratulations and my regards! You were right to tame and adopt that human. As far as I know there are still lots and lots of humans out there who could be adopted. Of course, none of them is perfect, but it’s just a matter of time and patience to make them at least more useful. Since I’m just a little kitten I may not know well, but to me it seems they all have the strange habit of leaving home for a long time, calling it "work" or something like that, and they all seem to believe it’s a perfect excuse! Well, mine has been home with me for some time now, due to some illness or something. But she says she will soon restart leaving me during the day. Even with that strange habit of theirs I guess most of them are adoptable, and in my opinion more cats should do that – I’m told there are so many cats without humans – they should know life can be much better and easier with a human, and even if there are some disadvantages, well, if you grow to love your human, you will be able to forgive them a lot.

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My Sory by Maya: Since I’m just a little kitten I may not know well, but to me it seems they all have the strange habit of leaving home for a long time, calling it "work" or something like that, and they all seem to believe it’s a perfect excuse! Well, mine has been home with me for some time now, due to some illness or something. But she says she will soon restart leaving me during the day.

I’m a bit older than you are, so I know about this habit of theirs. They go to this place called "work" to get what they call "money", which they need to be able to have the home, cat food, litter, toys, and so on. I’m told that older humans can get "money" from other places, but if your human’s still young, then this "work" thing that takes them away from their cats for part of the day is necessary. I have two humans. My male human goes out during the day, while my female human is here being my secretary and servant. I like that. Even with that strange habit of theirs I guess most of them are adoptable, and in my opinion more cats should do that – I’m told there are so many cats without humans – they should know life can be much better and easier with a human, and even if there are some disadvantages, well, if you grow to love your human, you will be able to forgive them a lot.

True. My female human doesn’t see well without these odd things she puts on her face, and trips over me at times. Also, my humans won’t let me eat the bird they decided is part of the family. Felix, an experienced owner of humans — Seanette Blaylock "You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." – Alan Krueger in NANAE [make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]

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My Story by Maya I was a poor little 9 month old Las Vegas cat and my humans were not treating me very well.  They would not let me inside at all and were not feeding me well.  So I spent my days wandering around my neighborhood staking out a territory.  Life is pretty tough when you are young, weigh less than eight pounds and on the streets all the time.  Other cats can be pretty mean and I had to be tough to survive.  One of the patios in my territory was really nice.  It had chairs with soft cushions on them.   All you other cats know the value of soft cushions for a cat looking to take a rest from the pressures of your busy day so I started hanging out there when it was empty.  This was the only patio that had furniture on it.  There were other patios with furniture but they already had cats there that were claiming them as theirs and they lived there.  I started spending more and more time on this patio and one day there was a human out there.  After carefully scouting the situation it seemed the human was not one of those mean ones who would chase me away with a broom or something.  He said hello and then ignored me.  So I settled in on an empty chair and took a good long nap.  When I awakened he was still there but seemed fine with the situation.  I came back after checking that no one had stolen my territory and took another nap.  But I had been thinking this had possibilities.   I needed a new home and this place seemed pretty nice.  The human just needed to be told what the new situation was be trained accordingly.  I spent the night there on the patio.  The next day he was there again in the morning and he woke me up so I checked my territory and came back.  That evening he fed me some really good tuna and gave me a blanket for the cold and I knew I had him.  Over the next few days I played hard to get and dumped the old collar I was wearing.  Then one night it was getting very cold and he let me inside.  He had been leaving food out for me and inside he even had a litter box!  That night I slept up on the bed with him and it was warm and so comfortable.  I stayed there all night except to use the litter box, heaven.  That morning he let me out before he left for the day. I hated to leave but I was worried about what was going on in my territory.  Over the next few days when he came home from some place called work I would be on the patio napping or show up and hang out.  I had to show a few other cats that this was my place now but other than that life was good.  Eventually, if he was going to work he would leave me in all day while he was gone.  I missed the adventure of being outside but it was really comfortable inside and when he came home he would let me outside.   That was over two years ago and I am not the skinny little street urchin I once was.  It took lot of training and long conversations on my part but now he